[Trade] Mark Stone (8yrs, $9.5mil AAV) to Vegas for Erik Brannstrom, Lindberg, 2020 2nd

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I flat out do not believe Burke on this one.

Valimaki + Andersson is double the value of the Las Vegas package.

You're talking about 2x15-22 minute a night NHL defenders plus a 1st.

I also don't believe the salary ask. Calgary and Edmonton are still the best municipalities in the league for a Canadian resident to earn max income.

It depends on a lot of factors but stone is realistically looking at between 500k-1 million in tax savings over the entire life of the contract, but he may actually take home less.

If he makes Vegas his residence he will be on the hook for Canadian and American taxes, and will have to pay income taxes and jock taxes every time he plays in a us state or city that has them. California, illinois, etc.

I've talked with accountants and business managers here over the years that have explained this to me in the same way.

A business manager told me last year that Calgary was just as competitive a tax jurisdiction as tampa depending on where you made your residency and the structure of the deal in terms of salary vs bonuses.

Burke is blowing hot air.

Alberta is still the best in Canada but not close to the four American teams.

nhl-tax-calculator

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Coach

I wouldn’t call Statsny as the best centre Stone has ever had as a slam dunk. Duchene and Turris are arguably as good or better.

Duchene and Stastny have pretty similar PPG for their careers - .75 for Duchene and .78 for Stastny. But Turris is a 0.59 PPG centre over 653 games. He's not as good as the other two, and he's who Stone has spent most of his time with.

Stone has been a PPG player going back to last season. He's a 1st line player on every team in the league. He was a 26 year old pending UFA, and those guys get paid 9+ now.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Duchene and Stastny have pretty similar PPG for their careers - .75 for Duchene and .78 for Stastny. But Turris is a 0.59 PPG centre over 653 games. He's not as good as the other two, and he's who Stone has spent most of his time with.



Stone has been a PPG player going back to last season. He's a 1st line player on every team in the league. He was a 26 year old pending UFA, and those guys get paid 9+ now.

Especially when he is an elite defensive winger.

Sure his contract will likely not be great at the end of his contract.

Any player who reaches his UFA years will sign a contract that won’t look great at the end of that contract. If anyone expected Stone to sign a different type of contract, they haven’t been watching.

That’s the price of trying to win the SC in a cap world.


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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I flat out do not believe Burke on this one.

Valimaki + Andersson is double the value of the Las Vegas package.

You're talking about 2x15-22 minute a night NHL defenders plus a 1st...

I don't believe Burke either, but I also still maintain that a first + Valimaki/Andersson + picks was not a price the Flames could afford to pay for Stone, especially considering how his addition to the team would affect the salary structure of the roster moving forward.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Alberta is still the best in Canada but not close to the four American teams.

nhl-tax-calculator

This doesn't really mean anything.

There are deferred tax benefits for Canadian athletes playing in Canada that reduce the overall tax burden of their location by anywhere between 10-20%, nor does it take into account the other jurisdictions players for these teams will have to file in, nor does it take into account residency, nor does it take into account municipal taxation that can and does apply to various jurisdictions in the US.

For instance, there is a separate income tax payable to the city of new york if you reside in manhattan x number of days per year.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Duchene and Stastny have pretty similar PPG for their careers - .75 for Duchene and .78 for Stastny. But Turris is a 0.59 PPG centre over 653 games. He's not as good as the other two, and he's who Stone has spent most of his time with.

Stone has been a PPG player going back to last season. He's a 1st line player on every team in the league. He was a 26 year old pending UFA, and those guys get paid 9+ now.

You're looking at their career PPG when that's not the context, especially for Statsny. You need to look at the players they were when playing with Stone.

Statsny is long past his prime. If you were talking Colorado's Statsny, I'd agree.

(disclaimer for the following, I don't know how often these players actually saw icetime together)

Turris and Stone played for Ottawa '12-'16. During that time:

Stone: 0.75 PPG (0.42 in 19 playoff games)
Turris: 0.68 PPG (0.52 in 19 playoff games - higher than Stone)

It's not uncommon for centres to have lower PPG stats than their wingers. Turris may have taken a step back, but at the time he was considered one of the better 2-way centremen.

Duchene and Stone played together '17-recently.

Stone: 1.06 PPG
Duchene: 0.91 PPG

That's an elite clip for sure for both players. No playoffs though. Duchene has a very short playoff resume.

Statsny over the same period as Duchene: 0.69 PPG.
*He did have a pretty monster playoffs last season at 0.88 PPG, and has shown to be a playoff performer before.

Decent, but Statsny has 4-5 years on the other two.

Either way, I never said he wasn't better, or possibly better, just that he's not "immediately the best he's ever seen", which he's not. If you go by the stats, Duchene was by far his best partner (if they did in fact play together) points-wise. Maybe the best combination of play and experience? Even then, Turris is arguable. And honestly I wouldn't consider any of these players to be "elite", at least not at this point. I haven't seen a lot of Stone, but there are very few players I'd pay that asset and/or dollar price for.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

9.5 million for 8 years for Mark Stone.

Mark Stone. Not Evgeni Malkin.

Malkin is making 9.5M but signed his contract when the cap was going to be 64M. 15% of the cap.

With a cap of around 84M next year, the equivalent hit would be 12.5M a year. With the cap inflation, comparing contracts from 6 years ago is a fool's errand.

As for Toews, he was getting heat because he went a 70 point player to a 50 point player. If Stone does the same, he too will be taking heat but if he remains a near point-per-game winger that provides elite defense, it's a perfectly reasonable contract.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Seguin is probably a fair comparable. Not being able to play centre but providing elite defense on wing probably cancel out enough.

Both near point-per-game over the last three season (0.94 for Stone compared to 0.91 for Seguin). Seguin is older but has been more healthy. Both making 9.5M-10M. These are the contracts that star, but not quite franchise players, are getting during their prime years.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Yea, with the way the Flames are playing now, our first pick could be a 17 or 18th overall. Someone mentioned Duchene the other day, he has 1 goal in 7 games and Columbus has 4 wins in their last 10 games. Is it possible that they could fire the GM?

In order for the pick to be 17th or 18th, the following would have to happen

1) The 7th and 8th place teams in each conference play in the conference finals.
2) The Sharks would have to pass them for 1st in the division
3) Have 5 or 6 of the other playoff teams finish higher than them in the regular season. Tampa, Bruins, Toronto, Caps are likely in this scenario. The Jets, Islanders or Preds would have to really turn it on to make teams five and six.

Needless to say, hard to see a scenario where the 7th and 8th place teams in each conference make the conference finals. That alone makes it impossible for the Flames to pick 17th or 18th, unless they drop to the 2nd or 3rd worst team to make the playoffs. They currently have a 10 point lead on the 2nd worst team in the playoffs as of today and a 14 point lead on the 3rd worst team. I will confidently say there is virtually no chance the Flames pick 17th or 18th this year.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This doesn't really mean anything.

There are deferred tax benefits for Canadian athletes playing in Canada that reduce the overall tax burden of their location by anywhere between 10-20%, nor does it take into account the other jurisdictions players for these teams will have to file in, nor does it take into account residency, nor does it take into account municipal taxation that can and does apply to various jurisdictions in the US.

For instance, there is a separate income tax payable to the city of new york if you reside in manhattan x number of days per year.

There are many ways to skin a cat and I'm not going to argue back and forth about tax cuts and loopholes but using Stones $9.5m contract and the signing bonuses attached to it looks like this, I can't come up with the actual number because I don't know his union dues and agent commissions(these aren't deductible in Nevada) if he becomes a Nevada resident (work visa/have an address) and he will, he will pocket roughly $800k per year average than he could in Calgary under any legal tax cuts and deferred benefits.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This doesn't really mean anything.

There are deferred tax benefits for Canadian athletes playing in Canada that reduce the overall tax burden of their location by anywhere between 10-20%, nor does it take into account the other jurisdictions players for these teams will have to file in, nor does it take into account residency, nor does it take into account municipal taxation that can and does apply to various jurisdictions in the US.

For instance, there is a separate income tax payable to the city of new york if you reside in manhattan x number of days per year.

All true. I've always been curious about how filing in multiple jurisdictions works. Is it 1/82 x salary (not including bonuses) for each game played in the jurisdiction? What if a player is injured or scratched for that game?

[GreenLantern2814]

First goal as a Knight. Watch this guy play, he's an absolute stud. Think he's going to be done at 34? That's jealousy talking. He's not gonna forget how to skate and he goes to the right places.

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

First goal as a Knight. Watch this guy play, he's an absolute stud. Think he's going to be done at 34? That's jealousy talking. He's not gonna forget how to skate and he goes to the right places.

Yep. He was our best shot to make a run this year (and future years). Ironic that he will now be on the team that takes us out pretty easily in the first round and causes havoc in the division for the better part of the next decade.

But hey, Valimaki could be a solid too pair d in a couple of years.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Duffalufagus

Yep. He was our best shot to make a run this year (and future years). Ironic that he will now be on the team that takes us out pretty easily in the first round and causes havoc in the division for the better part of the next decade.

But hey, Valimaki could be a solid too pair d in a couple of years.

Hot take

[Yobbo]

I know it's water under the bridge, but man would Stone look good on this team.

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Hot take

Hindsight for sure. Not sure what’s been posted the last few days as I’ve been away.

But, given how Stone looks in Vegas, hard to imagine that valimaki grades out as a better asset over the next number of years.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Duffalufagus

Hindsight for sure. Not sure what’s been posted the last few days as I’ve been away.

But, given how Stone looks in Vegas, hard to imagine that valimaki grades out as a better asset over the next number of years.

By all accounts it was Valimaki+ and 11M in cap space...there is more to it than a simple trade.

Also, he has one goal in Vegas...little early to call and to already be giving up on the playoffs because they beat the Flames 2-1? (Kinda) Seems silly

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by dino7c

By all accounts it was Valimaki+ and 11M in cap space...there is more to it than a simple trade.

Also, he has one goal in Vegas...little early to call and to already giving up on the playoffs because they beat the Flames 2-1? (Kinda) Seems silly

He hasn’t been on the ice for a goal against since he got there. The guy is a stud. He would have significantly improved this roster that, based on what I’m watching, needs it badly. Vegas will be favoured over us in the first round. Without question. And that has everything to do with Mark Stone.

11m? If that was the ask over 8 then I agree. Too much. But I highly doubt that was the number.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Duffalufagus

He hasn’t been on the ice for a goal against since he got there. The guy is a stud. He would have significantly improved this roster that, based on what I’m watching, needs it badly. Vegas will be favoured over us in the first round. Without question. And that has everything to do with Mark Stone.

11m? If that was the ask over 8 then I agree. Too much. But I highly doubt that was the number.

For what it's worth, using the CapFriendly post-tax earnings calculator Stone's $9.5M AAV is $6.02M in take home salary with Vegas.

For the same take home salary with Calgary, his AAV would need to be $11.52M.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dino7c

By all accounts it was Valimaki+ and 11M in cap space...there is more to it than a simple trade.

Also, he has one goal in Vegas...little early to call and to already be giving up on the playoffs because they beat the Flames 2-1? (Kinda) Seems silly

Where did you hear it was $11M he asked for from Calgary?


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