Ongoing Terrorism/ISIS/al Qaeda Thread

[nik-]

That phrase's association with German and Prussian military predated the Nazis by decades.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

No, you're being way too polite.

It was a dumb f__king comment attempting to advance a (religiously) fanatical anti-religion agenda. Zero tolerance for broad brushed prejudice.

What part was dumb?

[nik-]

Probably the implication that, in the present time, there's any sort of equality in the scope of death in the name of religion amongst the different religions.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by nik-

That phrase's association with German and Prussian military predated the Nazis by decades.

Oh I see, your a first reich kinda guy. My bad.

[nik-]

You gotta be kaiserin' me

[blankall]

To be fair Nazism was not especially religious. The Nazis saw religion as a part of traditional German culture, but they also aggressively attacked many Christian intuitions in favor of their own political agendas. The Nazis tried to establish their own church and some think their ultimate Gish may have been replacing Christianity with a nationalist church based on pre Christian occultism.

Basically Germany was already very Christian before the Nazis to power. The Nazis sought to undo this influence and replace it with their own.

[cracher]

Originally Posted by T@T

What part was dumb?

That part where you engage in the same conversation that you've a half-dozen times over 5 different threads.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by cracher

That part where you engage in the same conversation that you've a half-dozen times over 5 different threads.

Only 6 times? It should be more than that if you count em up, if your afraid of the truth or don't like to discuss the "evils" of religion why engage me back?

In case you haven't noticed this thread is about Islamic terrorism, and it's the grand poobah of ideological stupidity on the planet right now.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by blankall

To be fair Nazism was not especially religious. The Nazis saw religion as a part of traditional German culture, but they also aggressively attacked many Christian intuitions in favor of their own political agendas. The Nazis tried to establish their own church and some think their ultimate Gish may have been replacing Christianity with a nationalist church based on pre Christian occultism.

They had a fairly well-known alliance with the Vatican, though. And their scapegoating of Jews basically just stood on the shoulders of thousands of years of anti-semitic church teaching and tribal religious attitudes. Nazism leaned on religion pretty heavily, let's not kid ourselves.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

They had a fairly well-known alliance with the Vatican, though. And their scapegoating of Jews basically just stood on the shoulders of thousands of years of anti-semitic church teaching and tribal religious attitudes. Nazism leaned on religion pretty heavily, let's not kid ourselves.

Huh?

While the Nazi's supposedly guaranteed religious freedom of the church they moved to shut down catholic schools, and their press, there were also property seizures. On top of that, during the night of the long knives the Nazi's targeted clergy members.

There was a specific barracks for clergy men at Dachau.

the Vatican itself declared itself neutral during WW2, they did sign a Reich Concordat with the Germans to try to protect the clergy, but the Germans basically ignored it, and the Pope lodged about 50 protests against the German treatment of the Clergy.

the Pope asked the Papal Nuncio of Berlin to look at ways to help protect Jewish lives. He also made several radio announcements condemning Nazi atrocities.

Even John Cromwell who wrote the book Hitler's Pope has retracted most of his findings, which it seems like your viewpoint has come from.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

You're right about my view being influenced by Cromwell - you seem to have more insight on this than I do. I may need to look into it further and revise my understanding.

[CaptainCrunch]

There's a book called the Myth of Hitler's Pope by Rabbi David Dalin that just savages Hitler's Pope. The allegation of the Time Bomb Letter by Cromwell in his book was something that was debunked as the letter itself was not written by Pacelli for example but by his assistant and it had been published in the open. Cromwell also manipulated the date on the photo of the front cover of the American version of his book to make it seem like the pope had visited Hitler in 1939, when in fact the picture was taken in 1927 when the Pope was leaving a reception for the German President.

Cromwell himself stepped by from his views.

would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following 'Hitler's Pope', that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germans... But even if his prevarications and silences were performed with the best of intentions, he had an obligation in the postwar period to explain those actions."[7][18]

Pontiff in Winter

While I believe with many commentators that the pope might have done more to help the plight of the Jews, I now feel, 10 years after the publication of my book, that his scope for action was severely limited and I am prepared to state this.... Nevertheless, due to his ineffectual and diplomatic language in respect of the Nazis and the Jews, I still believe that it was incumbent on him to explain his failure to speak out after the war. This he never did

Radio interview

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

They had a fairly well-known alliance with the Vatican, though. And their scapegoating of Jews basically just stood on the shoulders of thousands of years of anti-semitic church teaching and tribal religious attitudes. Nazism leaned on religion pretty heavily, let's not kid ourselves.

The Nazis themselves aggressively attacked Catholic institutions in Germany. A major issue was that Austria, which Germany annexed, was largely Catholic while Germany proper was largely protestant. In order to establish a "German" culture they wanted to do undo the influence from Catholicism, which was seen as non-German.

The Vatican definitely looked the other way to the Holocaust, but the relationship between them and the Nazis was far more complex. There were lots of countries and institutions that cooperated with the Nazis at various points, but a lot of that was due to duress. In Italy, on the other hand, the Catholic Church cooperated and signed treaties with the local fascists, but the same wasn't really true of Germany.

[afc wimbledon]

Anti semetism is utterly rooted in Christianities belief that the Jews were the Christ killers, that the nazis were less religeous doesn't alter the fact they were, so to speak, standing on the shoulders of a thousand years of church sponsored anti semetism. Martin Luther was heavily anti Semitic in his older years.
Without the churches history of anti semetism there would have been no holocaust

And while the pope may not have been Hitlers Pope he was defiantly Mussolini's pope.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Anti semetism is utterly rooted in Christianities belief that the Jews were the Christ killers, that the nazis were less religeous doesn't alter the fact they were, so to speak, standing on the shoulders of a thousand years of church sponsored anti semetism. Martin Luther was heavily anti Semitic in his older years.
Without the churches history of anti semetism there would have been no holocaust

And while the pope may not have been Hitlers Pope he was defiantly Mussolini's pope.

No one disputes that. To call the Nazis a "Christian organization" is misleading though. They are an ethnic based nationalist organization that existed within a pre-existing Christian culture. They did exploit pre-existing Anti-Semitism in a Christian nation, but they largely sought to decrease the influence of Christianity (and the powerful Christian institutions) and replace it with nationalism. The tenants of Christianity were not nearly as important as those of racism and nationalism to the Nazis. This differs from ISIS, who are largely blind to race/nationality (although white western converts don't always ultimately have a good time), and instead focus on religion as the core of their belief system.


Although Jews may have been one of the greater victims of the Nazis, people also forget that groups like the Romas, handicapped, etc.. suffered similar fates and to a lesser extent so did Poles and Slavs.

[blankall]

^^^^^

To add to the above, Germany, prior to WWII, was extremely traditional, conservative, and religious. Most hardcore Christian sects in North America have their roots in that old German culture. So the Nazis were attempting to scale back an already conservative Christian base, while ISIS is attempting to impose a more conservative religious doctrine on a relatively (relative is a key word) liberal and modern population base.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

You're right about my view being influenced by Cromwell - you seem to have more insight on this than I do. I may need to look into it further and revise my understanding.

This is a very honest and mature post. No doubt that 99.99% of internet users wouldn't admit something like this and so I was really surprised to see it. Just wanted to say props bro.

[Cheese]

Hitlers comments on Catholicism and religion:

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

“I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the
character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has
never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred
years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its
amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been
rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be
built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or
irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long
as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.”

[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed.”

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a
political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on
his personal Christian feelings. Published in “My New Order”, quoted
in Freethought Today April 1990]

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

“What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
assigned to it by the Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the
practical existence of a religious belief.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

“And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

“Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

“Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be
wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in
a fanatical outlook.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]

[nik-]

Says some stuff, proceeds to persecute catholics and try to abolish existing churches to setup new Reich's church.

I'll think I'll put a tad more weight on his actions as opposed to his words.

[Street Pharmacist]

As usual, it's far more complex than he was/wasn't religious