This is a perfect example of what happens when you let people who don't understand how the system works participate in the system or cover it as a journalist. You, and the incompetent mass media, have made this result sound like some kind of protest vote. It wasn't. For a protest vote see Canadian federal election, 1993, and Alberta provincial election, 2015. Very little changed in this election other than Trump got elected. Only 16 incumbents lost their seats in congress. That is not a protest vote. If this were a protest vote there would have been 200 new representatives heading to Washington. This result was based on bad information and even worse journalism, which is exactly what the power brokers want. Think about it. How many power brokers in Washington were affected by this vote?
Blame who you want. Create whatever narrative helps you sleep at night.
But the numbers don't lie - go back and look at the those Politico figures. A lot of people who neither liked or trusted Trump voted for him.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
To be fair those people neither like or trusted Hillary. The people who disliked both broke for trump.
That's more or less his point - the "I don't want either option. Trump isn't qualified. But Trump will at least represent a '#### you' to the established order and shake things up" vote.
Which is insane, but people are awful, so.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Blame who you want. Create whatever narrative helps you sleep at night.
But the numbers don't lie - go back and look at the those Politico figures. A lot of people who neither liked or trusted Trump voted for him.
And what caused those numbers? The absolute garbage job done by those who claim to be journalists. That ain't what let's me sleep at night, its what keeps me awake at night. If these hacks that claim to be journalists employed some critical thinking skills and actually did some quality research, things may have been much different. The numbers don't lie. The people who voted for Trump were grossly misinformed of the facts of what was going on. That falls on the journalists and the incompetent hacks who claim to be journalists. We are where we are because people have tuned the media out, predominantly because they consider them a bunch of ambulance chasers more interested in fame than performing the job of oversight expected by the public at large.
That's obviously part of it. But not to be dismissed is the relatively large swath of voters who don't follow the issues, don't keep track of political point scoring (which is largely what the "neutral" media like CNN has been reduced to), don't really understand which candidate believes in what, don't even necessarily understand the overall political spectrum and tend to look at politics from a very macro perspective. These folks vote based on emotion, gut feeling, momentum and, dare I say, intangibles. Clinton didn't pander to them at all while Trump's campaign was almost singularly interested in those voters. I think the moral of the story may end up being: we knew the electorate was generally uniformed and uneducated, but we didn't know to what extent.
And what caused those numbers? The absolute garbage job done by those who claim to be journalists. That ain't what let's me sleep at night, its what keeps me awake at night. If these hacks that claim to be journalists employed some critical thinking skills and actually did some quality research, things may have been much different. The numbers don't lie. The people who voted for Trump were grossly misinformed of the facts of what was going on. That falls on the journalists and the incompetent hacks who claim to be journalists. We are where we are because people have tuned the media out, predominantly because they consider them a bunch of ambulance chasers more interested in fame than performing the job of oversight expected by the public at large.
Most people believe what they want to believe. There were all kinds of stories in the media exposing Trump's incompetence and corruption. True believers ignored that stuff, assuming it was lies peddled by a mainstream media in the pocket of the Clintons and Wall Street. It doesn't help that Americans overwhelmingly believed that the mainstream media backed Clinton. Others didn't know the worst about Trump because the media landscape today is so fragmented and partisan that there are few agreed-on facts. And yet other voters looked at the facts about Trump and voted for him anyway because they thought the alternative was worse.
Get used to it. By the time the next presidential election rolls around the mainstream media will be even more marginalized, and the number of agreed-on facts will be even smaller. The partisans on the left and right (and the other political identities that have appeared) will live in essentially different realities.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago
Dishonest media says Mexico won't be paying for the wall if they pay a little later so the wall can be built more quickly. Media is fake!
Can anyone explain what this means? I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to convey.
Can anyone explain what this means? I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to convey.
I think he's trying to get the wall built with American money so it can be funded immediately, and getting Mexico to reimburse later. The media is calling him out on this being ridiculous.
No, they don't. Most people believe what they are told by a figure of authority. The vast majority of people are not equipped to come a conclusion of their own of whatvthey can believe. They need someone to tell them.
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There were all kinds of stories in the media exposing Trump's incompetence and corruption. True believers ignored that stuff, assuming it was lies peddled by a mainstream media in the pocket of the Clintons and Wall Street.
There were not enough. There were also too many that made excuses for his behaviors. There were not enough that should have crucified him for his behaviors and his failures to observe long standing traditions of openness and transparency. The mass media should have drilled into those stories and provided substance required to show how untrustworthy and full of #### Donald Trump is. They didn't, and they failed in their responsibility as the function of oversight and a check on power. Instead they chose to take the easy way out, chased the salacious in Trump's tweets and let him drive the narrative. Disgustingly weak work by people who are more concerned for their own fame than they are about exposing the facts.
And they should have. Just like the press should have been against Hitler in the 1930's.
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Others didn't know the worst about Trump because the media landscape today is so fragmented and partisan that there are few agreed-on facts. And yet other voters looked at the facts about Trump and voted for him anyway because they thought the alternative was worse.
And where did the information for that perception come from? The mass media failed us as a source of information. I agree with you that the fragmentation of the media is largely to blame, but that was a politically motivated decision done years ago, and most people don't know who made the decision or why.
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Get used to it. By the time the next presidential election rolls around the mainstream media will be even more marginalized, and the number of agreed-on facts will be even smaller. The partisans on the left and right (and the other political identities that have appeared) will live in essentially different realities.
Completely agree. Unless the media finds a backbone. Maybe they can follow through by defending this eloquent speech.
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One of these days all these celebrities will figure out people care more about putting food on the table then all the social causes. They live in their perfect worlds not worrying one iota about how to pay for their utilities, health care, etc. All while collecting their millions.
I don't have any love for Trump but the last people I'm interested in hearing from are all these celebrities. I want to hear how policies directly affect the middle class on down.
Heard some interesting 1st hand stuff on the weekend about how some friends of mine, and their employees have been almost crushed by Obamacare. They voted Republican even though they think he's a complete tool.
They are middle class family, and had a gucci healthcare plan before Obama, $4000 a year for amazing coverage, which has increased to $8000 a year, and has a $4000 deductible. Their for profit health care system can not handle the legislations of Obama's plan and it is crushing people.
To the americans on this thread, what are your experiences with healthcare?
The golden globes last night sounded like a bunch of sour grapes to me. They could have made some better speeches if they really cared about the issues. But as always Hollywood goes for likebility without any substance.
Someone posts clip from 3-hour, televised award show attended almost entirely by celebrities, watched by millions of people, and featuring the same number of speeches by celebrities it features every year.
Response?
"Nobody cares what celebrities have to say!"
... sure. Meanwhile, a billionaire celebrity is days away from inauguration.
Sounds like we're overestimating Americans a little bit.
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To the americans on this thread, what are your experiences with healthcare?
I have not had any direct non-monetary experience with the ACA, as I get my health insurance through my employer.
That said, my share of the health insurance premiums and drug costs have been going up every year (and without any wage increases in the interim), and the list of fully covered drugs seems to be reduced each year (although I don't pay too much attention to this). The overall deductibles have been steady, but my employer is really pushing people to stop using a PPO and instead use Health Savings Accounts and a High-Deductible Health Plan. From what I can tell, only young and very healthy employees are going that route.
On the monetary side of the ACA, I'm extremely displeased with paying an additional Medicare tax and the 3.8% tax on my net investment income, both of which are imposed as a result of the ACA. If the US wishes to provide access to health insurance to everyone, then everyone should pay something for that access---this "just tax the "rich"" stuff is nonsense.
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I thought Obamacare was for people who weren't employed (i.e. employees get insurance through their employers' plan, not Obamacare)?
It changed so insurance companies couldn't refuse coverage to those with pre-existing conditions (which costs insurance companies more), but it's too easy to not enroll until you needed it. Increased costs, decreased pool of healthy people paying into it that aren't using it, rates go up.
Just enroll everyone in Medicade. Oh wait have to make sure people die from lack of health care otherwise the cool countries will call the US socialized.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
One of these days all these celebrities will figure out people care more about putting food on the table then all the social causes. They live in their perfect worlds not worrying one iota about how to pay for their utilities, health care, etc. All while collecting their millions.
Well that's a load of horse dookie. Americans aren't focused on putting food on the table. If they were they wouldn't give a rip about issues like abortion, gay marriage, guns, a wall, and so on. Americans are also extremely celebrity focused. They care more about hearing about the Kardashians than they do about understanding who is getting paid off in the laws passed by the states and the federal government. You're living in a fantasy world if you think Americans are anything but fame focused.
Quote:
Heard some interesting 1st hand stuff on the weekend about how some friends of mine, and their employees have been almost crushed by Obamacare. They voted Republican even though they think he's a complete tool.
They are middle class family, and had a gucci healthcare plan before Obama, $4000 a year for amazing coverage, which has increased to $8000 a year, and has a $4000 deductible. Their for profit health care system can not handle the legislations of Obama's plan and it is crushing people.
To the americans on this thread, what are your experiences with healthcare?
I will echo the sentiment of your friends on the state of healthcare and insurance. It has gone up in and the amount and quality of services has continued to drop. The problem is huge but it has been that way for the past two administrations. Things weren't much different under Bush, people were just more distracted by other things than having to worry about the increasing cost of health insurance and the loss of benefits.
I will also say, your friends are possibly idiots. If they are blaming this on Obama, they are idiots. "Obamacare" was not the president's fault. He didn't draft the bill. He didn't negotiate the bill. This all falls on congress. They were the clowns who put this mess together. They were the ones who negotiated it. If they truly believe Obamacare is at fault, then they have no one to blame but their representatives for putting together a law with many flaws and little teeth to keep the insurance companies in check.
Frankly, your friends sound like a lot of Americans. Uninformed rubes who like to complain about stuff they don't bother to even try and understand. And then when it comes time to fix the problem by turfing the idiots who put the legislation together, they get distracted by the presidential gong show and vote the same clowns back into congress. They want someone to blame, look in the mirror. The American electorate is the biggest problem in American politics. They are ignorant and easily manipulated. We are where we are because they don't understand their own form of government and how to fix it. You don't fix the problem by electing the same people over and over again. You also don't solve problems by not getting educated on the issues and making informed decisions. The vast majority of Americans get what they deserve.
Last edited by Lanny_McDonald; 01-09-2017 at 08:25 AM.
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Wow it's almost like the ACA is entirely different in scope and effect than it's original intention after being gutted and stripped of usefulness by Republicans to placate the insurance and private medical industries.
It's nice that there are people dumb enough to have voted for the party that castrated the ACA while blaming it's creators for the final result.
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Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
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