Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Who other than you and Pepsi is disputing it?

There you go again. Refusing to answer questions.
Just give us your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Otherwise do tell why they are barely paying this video any lip service. What explanation have you got?

Why in your opinion are they not seeking out interviews with the individual's lawyer?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I saw in the news that the RSF in Sudan just pulled off an eerily similar terrorist attack to that which Hamas completed in Israel.

10,000 killed in 5.5 million people displaced in Sudan so far this year. And it’s a nothing-burger in Western media. Same with the Sahel, which has seen over 22,000 deaths linked to militant Islamist groups in the last 12 months.

Where are the rallies and student protests? The newspaper editorials? The anguish at dead and displaced children? The truth is, nobody is much bothered when non-Europeans slaughter non-Europeans. It seems war only becomes a moral outrage when it’s European-coded actors involved.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Lol what? Wait I thought that was coerced, so he is Hamas for sure now?

Isn’t that what you’re suggesting?:

Originally Posted by Zevo

What more do you want ffs. The guy says he is Hamas and that Hamas uses the hospital and has offices in the hospital.

But then:

Originally Posted by Zevo

What I took from it is Hamas lies.

So which is it? Hamas lies? Or Hamas speaking is “video evidence ffs”? You’re telling us it’s Hamas, and that Hamas should be believed when someone from Hamas is speaking, but numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry shouldn’t be believed even though news agencies and human rights organizations take them as reliable because… you don’t like what they say? or?…

Originally Posted by Zevo

Really? Come on Pepsi, you're not that obtuse. Just by quoting the numbers given by the "health ministry" after it's been made clear that they tried to blame the hospital deaths on Israel and greatly inflated the numbers. What I took from it is Hamas lies.

And yes the article is fair. I don't have an issue with the article. It shows the truth is somewhere in the middle, I'm not the one that doesn't know that.

The truth is somewhere in the middle of… what? What are the other numbers we should be considering and finding the middle between? You say the article is fair, no issues right?:

International news agencies, including AP, as well as humanitarian workers and rights groups, have used the ministry’s numbers when independent verification is impossible.

So that’s fair, no issues, but when people here quote those new agencies in question it’s “giving Hamas more credence” than the unavailable Israeli numbers and creating a “double standard”?

If you’re going to call me obtuse, make sure you actually answered the question. I’m not interested in you whining about one incident, show me who is believing Hamas on every issue and who is saying we should believe Hamas in general.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

10,000 killed in 5.5 million people displaced in Sudan so far this year. And it’s a nothing-burger in Western media. Same with the Sahel, which has seen over 22,000 deaths linked to militant Islamist groups in the last 12 months.

Where are the rallies and student protests? The newspaper editorials? The anguish at dead and displaced children? The truth is, nobody is much bothered when non-Europeans slaughter non-Europeans. It seems war only becomes a moral outrage when it’s European-coded actors involved.

It's because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going for decades so naturally people are more aware and the Western countries don't show such great support for Sudan. Not to mention that the number of people Israel has killed in a few months is about the same as those conflicts have generated in a year.

[White Out 403]

as someone who relentlessly supported Israel 100% throughout this conflict, it's becoming very difficult.

[Cycling76er]

Originally Posted by Playfair

Can we at least agree that war is evil, regardless of anything else? There are pro Moscow, pro Ukraine. Pro Hamas, Pro Israel sides, and that goes for any conflict.

The whole thing is tragic. Governments fight governments, terrorist groups, etc. But ordinary people who want to live their life, go to work, raise a family, are always the ones who get caught up in the middle.

Of course I have opinions and my own understanding of everything, but forget all that. War is just plain evil

I think you mean 'Pro Palestine'. Nobody on this forum or protesting Israel in your local city is 'Pro Hamas'.

Palestine != Hamas.

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Zevo

LOL...the world, are sure it's not the whole universe? Man you must really hate Israel.

Can I get your opinion on this zevo
https://youtu.be/l75yhhAAPt0?si=gxk2VIn6BZLQo_Nj

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Southside403

Can I get your opinion on this zevo
https://youtu.be/l75yhhAAPt0?si=gxk2VIn6BZLQo_Nj

What specifically would you like to know.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

10,000 killed in 5.5 million people displaced in Sudan so far this year. And it’s a nothing-burger in Western media. Same with the Sahel, which has seen over 22,000 deaths linked to militant Islamist groups in the last 12 months.

Where are the rallies and student protests? The newspaper editorials? The anguish at dead and displaced children? The truth is, nobody is much bothered when non-Europeans slaughter non-Europeans. It seems war only becomes a moral outrage when it’s European-coded actors involved.

There will always be some hypocrisy with respect to social justice.

I think.folks are especially interested in this conflict is the potential scale of violence. Isreal has it within their means to blow pastine out of existence. It is for that reason people.are pleading for restraint.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

as someone who relentlessly supported Israel 100% throughout this conflict, it's becoming very difficult.

They're going for extermination now. Pointman should and will be happy, but regular people should be concerned with what is happening. It's insane.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

as someone who relentlessly supported Israel 100% throughout this conflict, it's becoming very difficult.

It was always going to be difficult, Hamas knew this would be Israels response, they use the Gazans as pawns as the leaders hide in other countries and collect worldwide support and money.

Problem is Israel needs to finish this, savages like Hamas will eventually get their hands on a dirty bomb or worst, just imagine to outcome if that happens. In the coming year I can see the Mossad carrying out lots of hit squad operations on Hamas leaders in other countries like Qatar, Syria and Jordan.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

10,000 killed in 5.5 million people displaced in Sudan so far this year. And it’s a nothing-burger in Western media. Same with the Sahel, which has seen over 22,000 deaths linked to militant Islamist groups in the last 12 months.

Where are the rallies and student protests? The newspaper editorials? The anguish at dead and displaced children? The truth is, nobody is much bothered when non-Europeans slaughter non-Europeans. It seems war only becomes a moral outrage when it’s European-coded actors involved.

It's almost as if Europeans feel more collectively responsible for the things they do "themselves", and/or connected to those events.

Imagine that.

This is also the absolute basics of how morality works for everyone, including the people say it doesn't. People are more emotionally involved in things that are closer to them.

No actually one thinks we should react equally to everything that happens anywhere in the world between any two groups of people regardless of anything. That includes you. I can with 100% confidence say you don't actually believe the opposite should be true.

This is just extremely basic "dumb things people say to feel smart" stuff.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are cheating a bit here. The argument was that Arabian CITIZENS OF ISRAEL are treated equally. Not West Bank Arabs. But you substituted Arabian citizens of Israel with Arabs of West Bank and than refuted the argument that you yourself made.

Regarding the second point, it is fair argument, although still a wrong one. Carpet bombing the only democracy in the middle east, that is surrounded by legit terrorists states, is not the way to lasting peace. If Hamas and Hezbollah win, they will form an second ISIS or third Al Qaeda if you will, and begin plotting attacks on USA. Israel is the only thing that keeps the west from another 9/11.

No, you're just making arguments up here.

Arab citizens of Israel generally think they are second-class citizens, when asked. Based on what they themself say.

It's just dumb to say this is somehow isn't true because the state of Israel says something else.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So you agree that the way to peace is an occupation, forced government change, massive re-education of population and forcing democracy at gunpoint (except that, though democracy, new far-right government is not allowed to be voted for). That's good. The only difference that we have is which side should go through the process. Which is beyond the point, although I will address it in my next response.The point of this post is that the only way to peace is a total submission of one side. The premise that violence only leads to more violence is just wrong. Decisive blowouts lead to peace, fair or not.

It's kind of sad when people who are theoretically smart and do know their history better than this bend themselves in pretzels to support mass violence towards a mostly civilian population.

You know as well as I do that your original theory was nonsense and doesn't actually hold up. It's why I really just bother to show up in this thread to say that, but there's no real point in "debating" you.

The only thing left is to keep pointing out that this is nonsense, so that you don't accidentally think you "made a point".

No you didn't. You spewed nonsense because you don't want to give up an untenable position.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Coach

Every military ever, especially ones in active conflict, has lied or withheld the truth. Israel has certainly been more transparent and earned the benefit of the doubt more than Hamas over their lifetimes.

That's not true at all.

Hamas officials actually have a pretty good historical record of reporting civilian casualties fairly accurately inside Gaza over a pretty long time (of course in part depending on which specific part of Hamas we're talking about), while IDF has been caught lying a huge number of times both historically and recently.

The reason is simply because Hamas doesn't really need to lie. All they need to do is point the camera at the countless civilian casualties and release the footage. The exact number of civilian casualties isn't actually that important to them. "250 die in a hospital attack" isn't really getting more of a public reaction from the outside than "500 die in a hospital attack", but it does make a difference to IDF that probably has to keep and publish these numbers as parts of statistics.

Debating the details of on individual attack is also generally much more in the interest of IDF, because that debate is going to focus the attention on whether or not THAT attack was justified, not whether or not the overall bombing campaign is justified.

It's also worth noting that as the local government, the Hamas try to keep both themselves and their population informed on who exactly died, which makes it a lot harder and more complicated for them to lie about the number of people who die.

Hamas will of course lie by omitting truths about any strikes that did hit something like a Hamas command center or a rocket storage, because it's not in their interest to talk about those things at all.

Both sides are being "transparent" exactly up to the point where they feel it makes them look good, plus IDF will publish things they are legally obligated to publish.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So what's your position? You believe there was a command centre because they said so and there is zero evidence of it?

You still believe Iraq has WMDs? I mean you would think US and British intelligence know the truth? Right? That's how it works?

I guess my position is exactly what I stated. Just because a newspaper investigation didn’t find anything it does not matter. The newspaper does not have the same access to information that the intelligence agencies have.

[Barnet Flame]

The amount of ‘pro Hamas’ accusations made against people who simply want the bombardment of an entire population resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocents, to stop, is sickening.

Hamas are a depraved and disgusting organisation as evidenced most recently in October.

The innocent Palestinian victims of this indiscriminate ongoing bombardment are not Hamas. They are victims of Hamas, the failure of the Arabic world and a brutal Israeli government hellbent on saving their own skins for their own failures.

The Israeli government and their apologists should not be allowed to continue labeliing as ‘pro Hamas and/or anti-Semite, those that demand this indiscriminate bombardment of an entire population stop in the name of humanity.

[CaptainCrunch]

Looking at Egypt's ambitious peace plan that's already been pretty much rejected by both sides, made me realize that this time, there is no peace plan that is going to be acceptable to either side.

Hamas has stated that they are not interested in peace plans or ceasefires unless they're left in place to re-arm and continue to attack Israel.

After the events of Oct 7th, Israel is not likely to accept anything that allows Hamas to stay in place.

At this point, I firmly believe that without some kind of 3rd party peace keeping force or peace enforcement force with a lot of muscle, this war isn't going to end. But Israel isn't going to trust a UN lead peace enforcement initiative. Hamas won't accept anyone that will block them from returning to attacks after they rest and rearm.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

That's not true at all.

Hamas officials actually have a pretty good historical record of reporting civilian casualties fairly accurately inside Gaza over a pretty long time (of course in part depending on which specific part of Hamas we're talking about), while IDF has been caught lying a huge number of times both historically and recently.

The reason is simply because Hamas doesn't really need to lie. All they need to do is point the camera at the countless civilian casualties and release the footage. The exact number of civilian casualties isn't actually that important to them. "250 die in a hospital attack" isn't really getting more of a public reaction from the outside than "500 die in a hospital attack", but it does make a difference to IDF that probably has to keep and publish these numbers as parts of statistics.

Debating the details of on individual attack is also generally much more in the interest of IDF, because that debate is going to focus the attention on whether or not THAT attack was justified, not whether or not the overall bombing campaign is justified.

It's also worth noting that as the local government, the Hamas try to keep both themselves and their population informed on who exactly died, which makes it a lot harder and more complicated for them to lie about the number of people who die.

Hamas will of course lie by omitting truths about any strikes that did hit something like a Hamas command center or a rocket storage, because it's not in their interest to talk about those things at all.

Both sides are being "transparent" exactly up to the point where they feel it makes them look good, plus IDF will publish things they are legally obligated to publish.

Hamas doesn't lie? Like when they said that Israel blew up a hospital with "thousands" killed? Which soon turned, that it was Palestinians rocket, and it didn't hit the hospital at all?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, you're just making arguments up here.

Arab citizens of Israel generally think they are second-class citizens, when asked. Based on what they themself say.

It's just dumb to say this is somehow isn't true because the state of Israel says something else.

As someone, who sees Israeli arabs every day, and of them is my daughter's family doctor, I challenge you to provide any proof on that.