Israel declares war on Hamas

[Playfair]

Can we at least agree that war is evil, regardless of anything else? There are pro Moscow, pro Ukraine. Pro Hamas, Pro Israel sides, and that goes for any conflict.

The whole thing is tragic. Governments fight governments, terrorist groups, etc. But ordinary people who want to live their life, go to work, raise a family, are always the ones who get caught up in the middle.

Of course I have opinions and my own understanding of everything, but forget all that. War is just plain evil

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Hilarious...video evidence is not enough. Sorry I can't get you an interview with the guy yourself!

Video evidence of what, though? It’s video evidence of someone talking, but not evidence that what is being said is true OR false. It’s coming from the IDF, which has been caught lying and distorting the truth repeatedly, and Shin Bet has a history of forcing both real and false confessions through torture and abuse.

I’m sure it’s difficult the closer you are to someone in the IDF itself, but their credibility should absolutely be questioned on everything. And that doesn’t mean “oh so we should just trust Hamas” or whatever lame retort that position usually receives, it means everything Hamas is aside, we still have to be honest about the IDF.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Video evidence of what, though? It’s video evidence of someone talking, but not evidence that what is being said is true OR false. It’s coming from the IDF, which has been caught lying and distorting the truth repeatedly, and Shin Bet has a history of forcing both real and false confessions through torture and abuse.

I’m sure it’s difficult the closer you are to someone in the IDF itself, but their credibility should absolutely be questioned on everything. And that doesn’t mean “oh so we should just trust Hamas” or whatever lame retort that position usually receives, it means everything Hamas is aside, we still have to be honest about the IDF.

What more do you want ffs. The guy says he is Hamas and that Hamas uses the hospital and has offices in the hospital.

I can post a video IDF released of cctv footage from the Shifa Hospital with an October 7th time stamp, documenting Hamas terrorists forcibly transporting hostages (a Nepalese civilian and a Thai civilian) through the hospital but I'm sure it will be met with "Must be fake posted by Israel!"

And yes I will say several posters are posting civilian death numbers supplied by Hamas without questioning it but everything from IDF sources including video is questioned ad nauseum. It's an absolute double standard that needs to be called out.

[Bagor]

I sense that it's hard for you to accept but the world doesn't trust the word of Israel. It's not just this board. It's the world.

Especially given that they're openly stated and called for a genocide

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I sense that it's hard for you to accept but the world doesn't trust the word of Israel. It's not just this board. It's the world.

Especially given that they're openly stated and called for a genocide

LOL...the world, are sure it's not the whole universe? Man you must really hate Israel.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zevo

LOL...the world, are sure it's not the whole universe? Man you must really hate Israel.

No. I don't, but if that helps your denial of the fact that they don't trust them well use it as a coping mechanism.

Otherwise do tell why they are barely paying this video any lip service. What explanation have you got?

Why in your opinion are they not seeking out interviews with the individual's lawyer?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

What more do you want ffs. The guy says he is Hamas and that Hamas uses the hospital and has offices in the hospital.

I can post a video IDF released of cctv footage from the Shifa Hospital with an October 7th time stamp, documenting Hamas terrorists forcibly transporting hostages (a Nepalese civilian and a Thai civilian) through the hospital but I'm sure it will be met with "Must be fake posted by Israel!"

And yes I will say several posters are posting civilian death numbers supplied by Hamas without questioning it but everything from IDF sources including video is questioned ad nauseum. It's an absolute double standard that needs to be called out.

It has nothing to do with wanting “more,” it’s about evaluating sources from an objective lens. The video is, based on content alone, easier to believe than it is to dismiss. Who wouldn’t want to believe that to be true? But just because we want it to be true doesn’t mean we should throw what we know about how IDF operates out the window.

As far as the civilian death numbers go, those numbers historically have been fairly trustworthy (within an acceptable range), and journalists and other organizations independently verify numbers whenever and however possible. What is your position? That no civilians have died? No buildings have been destroyed? What alternative source are you presenting us to evaluate against the numbers others work to verify?

But outside of complaining about a “double standard,” what exactly is your position then? That you should be able to quote IDF sources without being questioned because people quote death numbers originating from Hamas without being questioned? Or that both should be questioned, even though you’re going to do one anyway?

[Doctorfever]

You would think if the video was fake, Hamas would be saying the guy in the video doesn’t or never has belonged to Hamas.

Maybe they have, and I have not saw that. To be fair, I haven’t looked either.

[Harry Lime]

Since when have historically fairly trustworthy civilian death numbers been supplied by hamas? They might be murdering, raping monsters, but their arithmetic has always been right on point!

[Mr.Coffee]

Anyone interested in this topic should listen to The Martyrmade podcast by Darryl Cooper, a mini series called “Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem”. The series was made in 2015 and is basically a pretty good historical account (seems fairly balanced to me) of how we got here.

I’ve learned a lot listening to it. You have to scroll to previous episodes to find #1 but it’s really good.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Since when have historically fairly trustworthy civilian death numbers been supplied by hamas? They might be murdering, raping monsters, but their arithmetic has always been right on point!

Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

— 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

— 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

— 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-ha...f73c703400b033

Article is worth a read even just in regards to understanding more about how the numbers come to be, the issues with them, and whatever else you want to know.

Believe it or not, there are Palestinians in Gaza who don’t do the murdering and raping. Some are even doctors whose job it is to count dead Palestinians. Crazy, but true.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No. I don't, but if that helps your denial of the fact that they don't trust them well use it as a coping mechanism.

Otherwise do tell why they are barely paying this video any lip service. What explanation have you got?

Why in your opinion are they not seeking out interviews with the individual's lawyer?

Who other than you and Pepsi is disputing it?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It has nothing to do with wanting “more,” it’s about evaluating sources from an objective lens. The video is, based on content alone, easier to believe than it is to dismiss. Who wouldn’t want to believe that to be true? But just because we want it to be true doesn’t mean we should throw what we know about how IDF operates out the window.

As far as the civilian death numbers go, those numbers historically have been fairly trustworthy (within an acceptable range), and journalists and other organizations independently verify numbers whenever and however possible. What is your position? That no civilians have died? No buildings have been destroyed? What alternative source are you presenting us to evaluate against the numbers others work to verify?

But outside of complaining about a “double standard,” what exactly is your position then? That you should be able to quote IDF sources without being questioned because people quote death numbers originating from Hamas without being questioned? Or that both should be questioned, even though you’re going to do one anyway?

My position is some in here have an obvious bias as who should be believed and are only calling out one side. The fact that anyone gives more credence to a terrorist organization like Hamas is ####ing brutal and I'm not just talking about civilian deaths.

Israel bombed a hospital, total carnage, 500+ dead (as reported by Hamas), there was outrage. Wait, what? It was a terrorist rocket and far less dead...crickets.

From the same article Pepsi posted:

"But an outlier is the ministry’s death toll from an explosion at al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City in mid-October.

There were conflicting accusations of who was responsible, with Hamas officials blaming an Israeli airstrike and Israel saying it was caused by a an errant rocket launched by Palestinian militants. U.S. and French intelligence services also concluded it was likely caused by a misfired rocket. An AP analysis of video, photos and satellite imagery, as well as consultation with experts, showed the cause was likely a rocket launched from Palestinian territory that misfired and crashed. However, a definitive conclusion couldn’t be reached.

There have also been conflicting accounts of the explosion’s death toll. Within an hour, Gaza’s ministry reported 500 Palestinians killed, then lowered that to 471 the next day. Israel says the ministry inflated the toll. American intelligence agencies estimate 100 to 300 people killed, but haven’t said how they arrived at the numbers.

The confusion has called into question the ministry’s credibility in the Hamas-ruled territory"

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Zevo

My position is some in here have an obvious bias as who should be believed and are only calling out one side. The fact that anyone gives more credence to a terrorist organization like Hamas is ####ing brutal and I'm not just talking about civilian deaths.

Israel bombed a hospital, total carnage, 500+ dead (as reported by Hamas), there was outrage. Wait, what? It was a terrorist rocket and far less dead...crickets.

Dude, you are also coming across as extremely biased. You can see that right?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

My position is some in here have an obvious bias as who should be believed and are only calling out one side. The fact that anyone gives more credence to a terrorist organization like Hamas is ####ing brutal and I'm not just talking about civilian deaths.

Israel bombed a hospital, total carnage, 500+ dead (as reported by Hamas), there was outrage. Wait, what? It was a terrorist rocket and far less dead...crickets.

From the same article Pepsi posted:

"But an outlier is the ministry’s death toll from an explosion at al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City in mid-October.

There were conflicting accusations of who was responsible, with Hamas officials blaming an Israeli airstrike and Israel saying it was caused by a an errant rocket launched by Palestinian militants. U.S. and French intelligence services also concluded it was likely caused by a misfired rocket. An AP analysis of video, photos and satellite imagery, as well as consultation with experts, showed the cause was likely a rocket launched from Palestinian territory that misfired and crashed. However, a definitive conclusion couldn’t be reached.

There have also been conflicting accounts of the explosion’s death toll. Within an hour, Gaza’s ministry reported 500 Palestinians killed, then lowered that to 471 the next day. Israel says the ministry inflated the toll. American intelligence agencies estimate 100 to 300 people killed, but haven’t said how they arrived at the numbers.

The confusion has called into question the ministry’s credibility in the Hamas-ruled territory"

Who is giving “more credence” to Hamas on an issue by issue basis? Who is saying Hamas should be believed in general?

I’m interested in what you took from that article, as it kind of flies in the face of your position. It both shows that the numbers coming from the ministry have historically been trustworthy, and cites an event where those numbers have been called into question (while quoting multiple people with different perspectives around those numbers). Is that a “double standard” to you? Or would you say the article is pretty fair, and maybe your view might be too heavily biased?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Dude, you are also coming across as extremely biased. You can see that right?

I guess if calling out posters for calling Israel a "a nation that has a global reputation of being untrustworthy and lying" and saying "the world doesn't trust them" and denying absolutely every thing reported by any Israeli source but quotes Hamas, then sure.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

I guess if calling out posters for calling Israel a "a nation that has a global reputation of being untrustworthy and lying" and saying "the world doesn't trust them" and denying absolutely every thing reported by any Israeli source but quotes Hamas, then sure.

You just pointed to a video of a Hamas commander speaking and pointed to it as evidence of something simply because he said it.

Can you be more clear as to whether people are supposed to believe anything anyone from Hamas says or not?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Who is giving “more credence” to Hamas on an issue by issue basis? Who is saying Hamas should be believed in general?

I’m interested in what you took from that article, as it kind of flies in the face of your position. It both shows that the numbers coming from the ministry have historically been trustworthy, and cites an event where those numbers have been called into question (while quoting multiple people with different perspectives around those numbers). Is that a “double standard” to you? Or would you say the article is pretty fair, and maybe your view might be too heavily biased?

Really? Come on Pepsi, you're not that obtuse. Just by quoting the numbers given by the "health ministry" after it's been made clear that they tried to blame the hospital deaths on Israel and greatly inflated the numbers. What I took from it is Hamas lies.

And yes the article is fair. I don't have an issue with the article. It shows the truth is somewhere in the middle, I'm not the one that doesn't know that.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You just pointed to a video of a Hamas commander speaking and pointed to it as evidence of something simply because he said it.

Can you be more clear as to whether people are supposed to believe anything anyone from Hamas says or not?

Lol what? Wait I thought that was coerced, so he is Hamas for sure now?

[FlamesAddiction]

I saw in the news that the RSF in Sudan just pulled off an eerily similar terrorist attack to that which Hamas completed in Israel.