2022/2023 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I really wish this team would manage themselves with more attention and focus on building an asset base to allow the team to be a contender for an extended window. That takes hard decisions, harder than this franchise has seemingly been capable of making. You can go back and look at all the core players that should have been traded earlier: Iginla, Regehr, Kipper, Langkow, Johnny, etc.

But I have a hard time placing the fault at the feet of the different GMs since this seems to be a longstanding issue that suggests it's more at the ownership level.

But I would love them to become brutal about asset management.
In my bubble I would have traded Johnny 3-4 years ago.

Your team would never be good though...you would always be looking for the shiny new toy

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If Gaudreau was put on the table last summer, or even the year before, I have no doubt that teams around the league would have made some pretty decent players available. It's impossible to say. I wouldn't have been shocked if Philly would have paid a high price at that time as it was likely they thought they could sign him to an extension.

I get that having Gaudreau helped win the division and making the 2nd round of the playoffs is nice, and that has value. But it's not like Treliving would have got nothing for him. Gaudreau's value was not as low as some people seem to think IMO.

This is one thing that I don't understand about how people can call Treliving a wizard and put him above criticism, but then have absolutely no faith that he could have pulled off a great trade where the team would still be competitive without also losing a franchise player for nothing. When it comes to making trades, that is the one thing that I think Treliving does better than almost any other GM.

It really depends on what happens in the future. If having one good season (not even what I would call great in the big picture as the team was pummeled in the playoffs) means it is followed by several years of mediocrity for losing a franchise player for nothing, then I personally don't think it is worth it. Only time will tell.

FWIW, the Athletic had a piece at the end of the 2020 season in which they polled NHL execs, scouts, coaches on ‘realistic’ trade proposals. The deal for Gaudreau was Koneckny for Gaudreau and a 5th. Out of all the other deals, this was the only one that had universal approval.

On one hand you say Treliving deserves credit for making hood trades but what if there simply wasn’t a good trade to be made? Does he do it anyway because the player might leave in two years or a year or whatever? Bear in mind up until he left, Gaudreau stated publicly, on a number of occasions, he wanted to stay.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I really wish this team would manage themselves with more attention and focus on building an asset base to allow the team to be a contender for an extended window. That takes hard decisions, harder than this franchise has seemingly been capable of making. You can go back and look at all the core players that should have been traded earlier: Iginla, Regehr, Kipper, Langkow, Johnny, etc.

But I have a hard time placing the fault at the feet of the different GMs since this seems to be a longstanding issue that suggests it's more at the ownership level.

But I would love them to become brutal about asset management.
In my bubble I would have traded Johnny 3-4 years ago.

So you are seeking the forever rebuild? Are you suggesting Johnny should have been traded after his 99pt season? It is insane to trade your best player who was 25 and signed for 3 more years to get assets.

It is easy to see they failed to trade a 30+ Iginla or Kipper but our players were still not even in their prime 3-4 years ago.

The Hamonic and Elliott trades were the big blunders as that cost the team a 12th overall pick, 34th overall pick and 2 other 2nds.

The team was trending up 4 years ago the team took a huge leap due to a great blockbuster deal with the Hurricanes. I do think Johnny was shopped in the years after but always for underwhelming returns. I think they have come close to dealing Monahan and missed the boat there on a solid return.

Cutting bait with players early is how you never get out of the cycle of building. Don’t wait until they are 35 like they did with Iggy but patience is not a bad thing. By all accounts the negotiations with Gaudreau last summer lead the Flames to believe there was a deal there so less risk walking him to free agency considering they were willing to move heaven and earth to keep him however the dynamic changed with a baby on the way.

I can’t think of a franchise that has done what you are suggesting.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So you are seeking the forever rebuild? Are you suggesting Johnny should have been traded after his 99pt season? It is insane to trade your best player who was 25 and signed for 3 more years to get assets.

It is easy to see they failed to trade a 30+ Iginla or Kipper but our players were still not even in their prime 3-4 years ago.

The Hamonic and Elliott trades were the big blunders as that cost the team a 12th overall pick, 34th overall pick and 2 other 2nds.

The team was trending up 4 years ago the team took a huge leap due to a great blockbuster deal with the Hurricanes. I do think Johnny was shopped in the years after but always for underwhelming returns. I think they have come close to dealing Monahan and missed the boat there on a solid return.

Cutting bait with players early is how you never get out of the cycle of building. Don’t wait until they are 35 like they did with Iggy but patience is not a bad thing. By all accounts the negotiations with Gaudreau last summer lead the Flames to believe there was a deal there so less risk walking him to free agency considering they were willing to move heaven and earth to keep him however the dynamic changed with a baby on the way.

I can’t think of a franchise that has done what you are suggesting.

No I'm not advocating for a forever re-build, but this is a franchise that has been asset poor since the mid 90s. These aren't binary choices. You can give more attention to your asset base to give yourself more chances to win cups long-term, instead of building towards limited contention windows of 2-3 years. Otherwise you are constantly chasing your tail.

This organization priorities winning now over building a proper asset base.
But they never win now. So it's the worst of both.

Deplete the asset base to try to win
Never win.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No I'm not advocating for a forever re-build, but this is a franchise that has been asset poor since the mid 90s. These aren't binary choices. You can give more attention to your asset base to give yourself more chances to win cups long-term, instead of building towards limited contention windows of 2-3 years. Otherwise you are constantly chasing your tail.

This organization priorities winning now over building a proper asset base.
But they never win now. So it's the worst of both.

Deplete the asset base to try to win
Never win.

I think they were asset poor since the 90’s largely because of some absolute brutal drafting that I think has taken a step forward in the last 10 years. Treliving has made some poor pick related trades. Hamonic, Elliott, Lazar, Bollig were all poor deals in hindsight. Toffoli deal is still under evaluation but our depth chart looks better with him on it after losing Tkachuk on the right side.

You are talking about trading our best player when he was 24-25 years old because it gives the team more assets but also weakens the team significantly to the point they wouldn’t be competitive and likely top free agents like Markstrom would have not signed here.

I feel like your issue may be due to the poor drafting this team had in the 2000’s. Since the teams cup run in 04:
Pelech, Irving, Nemisz, Erixon, No pick (10), Baerstchi, Jankowski, Poirier, Klimchuk, no pick (15), Valimaki, no pick (18), no pick (22)
All of these picks have been mediocre to straight bad

Jury is still out on
Pelletier, Zary, Coronato

Successful picks
Backlund, Monahan, Bennett (debatable), Tkachuk

One late pick turned into a long time member of the franchise the other 3 were their top 6 picks of the rebuild. Some of those medicore assets were flipped for value (Erixon, 2015 1st rounder, 2022 first rounder, Baerstchi) but most were lost for nothing.

You have to hit on your picks to get the asset base you are talking about.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If Gaudreau was put on the table last summer, or even the year before, I have no doubt that teams around the league would have made some pretty decent players available. It's impossible to say. I wouldn't have been shocked if Philly would have paid a high price at that time as it was likely they thought they could sign him to an extension.

I get that having Gaudreau helped win the division and making the 2nd round of the playoffs is nice, and that has value. But it's not like Treliving would have got nothing for him. Gaudreau's value was not as low as some people seem to think IMO.

This is one thing that I don't understand about how people can call Treliving a wizard and put him above criticism, but then have absolutely no faith that he could have pulled off a great trade where the team would still be competitive without also losing a franchise player for nothing. When it comes to making trades, that is the one thing that I think Treliving does better than almost any other GM.

It really depends on what happens in the future. If having one good season (not even what I would call great in the big picture as the team was pummeled in the playoffs) means it is followed by several years of mediocrity for losing a franchise player for nothing, then I personally don't think it is worth it. Only time will tell.

All evidence flies in the face of the bolded...he wasn't even in high demand after his amazing season.

Buchnevich and Reinhart are the closest trade comps (albeit younger and RFAs).

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Trotz is gone.

Toews, Eberle, Leddy, and others are gone from those teams. And they are 3 years older.

Lee is 32, Nelson, is 30, Bailey is 32, Pageau will 30 when next season starts, Palmieri is 31, Cizikas, is 31, Clutterbuck is 34, Martin is 33.

They do have some decent pieces in their prime in Barzal (25), Pulock (27), Pelech (27), Dobson (22), Romanov (22), and Sorokin (26).

But they haven't had a 1st round pick since 2019 (moved all of the 2020, 2021, and 2022 firsts) so not a deep prospect pool coming up to help them.

I don't think those two runs are indications of future success for that franchise.

The second ECF they managed without Toews. Leddy was certainly important, though you could argue he's been replaced by Dobson who was their #6 in ECF 2 (and didn't play in playoffs at all the year before).

Eberle had 11pts in 19 games in 2021. 6th among F's in both playoff pts and TOI (16:07 TOI). In 2020 he was 4th in both pts and TOI. And most good teams lost someone good in the ED.


Obviously they aren't going to be a perennial contender, but I think they'll still be a really tough out for the next 2-3 years.

[saillias]

Salim with a couple tweets adding fuel to the fire of the "trade a D for a forward" conversation.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1554593012121882624

https://twitter.com/user/status/1554594297042767872

He has in the past had a tendency to speak into existence moves that Brad ends up making. including specific names the Flames were targeting in UFA or at trade deadline.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think they were asset poor since the 90’s largely because of some absolute brutal drafting that I think has taken a step forward in the last 10 years. Treliving has made some poor pick related trades. Hamonic, Elliott, Lazar, Bollig were all poor deals in hindsight. Toffoli deal is still under evaluation but our depth chart looks better with him on it after losing Tkachuk on the right side.

You are talking about trading our best player when he was 24-25 years old because it gives the team more assets but also weakens the team significantly to the point they wouldn’t be competitive and likely top free agents like Markstrom would have not signed here.

I feel like your issue may be due to the poor drafting this team had in the 2000’s. Since the teams cup run in 04:
Pelech, Irving, Nemisz, Erixon, No pick (10), Baerstchi, Jankowski, Poirier, Klimchuk, no pick (15), Valimaki, no pick (18), no pick (22)
All of these picks have been mediocre to straight bad

Jury is still out on
Pelletier, Zary, Coronato

Successful picks
Backlund, Monahan, Bennett (debatable), Tkachuk

One late pick turned into a long time member of the franchise the other 3 were their top 6 picks of the rebuild. Some of those medicore assets were flipped for value (Erixon, 2015 1st rounder, 2022 first rounder, Baerstchi) but most were lost for nothing.

You have to hit on your picks to get the asset base you are talking about.

The Sutter era drafting certainly contributed to the issue too. No doubt.

[getbak]

I like that we're all just at the point where we assume Stone is going to sign some time before the start of the season.

[FlamesAddiction]

I could see them trying to sneak both Mackey and Valimaki to the AHL when the pre-season waiver frenzy starts. I think there is a good chance that both would clear. Might still be worth trying to trade one just in case, but I don't think either have much value.

[Flamesfan05]

Wonder what Meloche and Gilbert are thinking right now. They signed pretty quick but there is really no room for both. May not even for one

[ComixZone]

I still look at Taylor Hall.

All awkward over there in a Bruins jersey…with the Bruins needing to dump salary in order to sign Krejci and Bergeron…

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Wonder what Meloche and Gilbert are thinking right now. They signed pretty quick but there is really no room for both. May not even for one

They are tweeners that were signed to probably play most of the year in the AHL unless there are injuries.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Wonder what Meloche and Gilbert are thinking right now. They signed pretty quick but there is really no room for both. May not even for one

It's pretty obvious they were Welinski and Gravel replacements, especially with Zadorov re-signing the same day.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I still look at Taylor Hall.

All awkward over there in a Bruins jersey…with the Bruins needing to dump salary in order to sign Krejci and Bergeron…

Would be an interesting and cheapish pickup

[ForeverFlameFan]

A Hall - Monahan - Toffoli line would be worth looking at imo.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Someone suggested Valimaki for another team's underperforming former first rounder, but a forward.

A swap of reclamation projects if you will. If it doesn't work out, you put them on waivers where either a team claims him, or he plays in the AHL. In either situation you're not losing much.

If the player works out, then that's a bonus.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by butterfly

It's pretty obvious they were Welinski and Gravel replacements, especially with Zadorov re-signing the same day.

Except they got 1 way deal and Meloche got more than minimum

They were hoping for an NHL job and it was much more rosy back then

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Someone suggested Valimaki for another team's underperforming former first rounder, but a forward.

A swap of reclamation projects if you will. If it doesn't work out, you put them on waivers where either a team claims him, or he plays in the AHL. In either situation you're not losing much.

If the player works out, then that's a bonus.

Candidates:
Owen Tippet (likely will get a fresh look in Philly though)
Gabe Vilardi (Flames would have to add)
Kristian Vesalainen (Meh)
Morgan Frost
Filip Zadina
Oliver Wahlmstrom
Ty Dellandrea
Grigori Denisenko

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Except they got 1 way deal and Meloche got more than minimum

They were hoping for an NHL job and it was much more rosy back then

So they have to earn that. Why are we worried about how they feel about this?
1 way contracts are sometimes given to tweeners so they have assurance that they will make that. Doesn't guarantee an actual NHL job.