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View Poll Results: What will happen to Brad Treliving after the end of the season?
He should and will be fired 167 17.06%
He should be fired, but will continue as the Flames GM 277 28.29%
He should not and will not be fired 288 29.42%
He should not but will be fired 27 2.76%
Unsure if he should be, but he will be fired 37 3.78%
Unsure if he should be, but he will not be fired 183 18.69%
Voters: 979. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-25-2021, 10:11 AM   #4241
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No but we need changes badly
But again "change" on it's own is not what the team needs at all. They need specific changes, and unless the opportunity is there, and unless the price is palatable then these changes will further damage the team. I didn't see anything happen this past weekend that I thought would improve the Flames as needed, and in this situation it may just be better to be more patient.

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Old 07-25-2021, 10:16 AM   #4242
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I am not talking about the draft. Not sure how much he is involved with amateur scouting.

He also spent heavily on the defense and we ended up with Hamonic and Hanifin. One is below average and the other horrific.

He also waited too long on Johnny and Monahan.
The draft statistics have completely changed from 2015 on with Treliving running the hockey operations.

Hanifin is below average?

Waited to long for what? You thought Monahan was going to get hurt every year and the league was going to figure Gaudreau out? Good for you, but you'd be in a tiny minority.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:17 AM   #4243
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Except he hasn't. He's paid through the nose to make a couple deals, but has not strengthen the team in any way. The team has gotten worse under his tenure and continues to head in the wrong direction because he is not forward thinking, he is reactionary in his management approach.



In seven years he's finally managed to address the goaltender position... we hope. Last season's performance was not an indication of solving anything, but the hope is Markstrom bounces back and we have a legitimate starter.
That is my belief anyways.

Center ice is a position he has done nothing to address. They addressed the problem by bringing in a guy they initially played on RW, but moved to center our of necessity as Backlund regressed and Monahan suffered through injuries. He has NOT addressed the center ice position in any meaningful way. After seven years running the show we still do not have a centers that make you pause and say, "that's some good center depth." We don't have depth to fill the roster and we don't have a center in the wings that we can expect to step in and challenge any of the veterans for their position. After SEVEN years.



Well, he tried, but then he decided to move one of the best pieces for lesser return (a good trade!) and then not keep his eye on the prize of improving it where he could. He also didn't have a succession plan in how to address the departure of key players in that regard. The loss of Hamonic, then Brodie, then Giordano, without recouping anything in return, was brutal asset management and left his attempt to build one of the best top fours in the league as a distant and painful memory.



And its been pretty much a failure. In seven years we have a top end LW drafted sixth over all (no brainer), a couple of middle six forwards, a middle pair defenseman, a bottom pair defenseman, and a number eight defenseman to show for it. Then we have a minor league team with very few prospects with a realistic shot of playing in the NHL.



Treliving's best skill. He has done a great job for the most part. I give him all the credit in the world here. He would make an incredibly good assistant GM with this responsibility.



I actually like the guy. He's a really nice speaker with an engaging personality. But I don't see a plan, nor any success with this supposed plan. The team has gotten worse at every turn and that's the bottom line. You know, I've been kind of on the fence with Treliving, but you've really solidified my opinion. The results are the bottom line. As nice a guy as he is, it's time for him to go.
Honestly I think the fact that it took you 700 words to respond is evidence he has a plan.

May not have worked, and that's fair, but I don't see a guy without a plan at all.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:21 AM   #4244
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Honestly I think the fact that it took you 700 words to respond is evidence he has a plan.

May not have worked, and that's fair, but I don't see a guy without a plan at all.
Could you highlight the plan that you do see? For some of us that are having trouble seeing it.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:23 AM   #4245
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Could you highlight the plan that you do see? For some of us that are having trouble seeing it.
Read above.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:31 AM   #4246
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Treliving has a plan, but it has largely not succeeded because of personnel. He had a plan for goalies prior to Markstrom. It was to use vets as stopgaps until Parsons or Gillies were established. He had a centre plan - Bennett/Monahan. Then Lindholm in the mix. He had a RW plan, but his choices for that slot were bad. His notion of a RHS D to play top 4 with Brodie, Gio and Hamilton was sound - he targeted the wrong guy.

If Gillies/Parsons, Bennett, Neal and Hamonic panned out like the plan assumed, you’d have a strong team at goal, D and down the middle. And you’d have a big goal scorer on the RW. Treliving’s flaw isn’t his plan. It’s mainly his pro scouting, plus just bad luck with goalies.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:38 AM   #4247
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Not sure I agree with that either.

Way more success in the draft past the first round than we've seen in 20 years in Calgary.

UFA wise the Brouwer and Neal signings were an issue for sure, but since then he's been fine in the UFA market.

His big issue and one that I think is enough to go another way if you feel that way is moving picks to bolster a core that wasn't ready or effective. Personally I didn't think Monahan and Gaudreau would face plant either so I don't hold it against him, but if you saw that coming you don't put picks in play to add to them.

But draft wise with picks they've been damn astute in the last five years.

I noticed that you keep saying this, but I don't agree.
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/...r00005090.html


Since the 2008 draft under Sutter, this team has been much a much better drafting team.


2008: Bouma 3rd round, Brodie 4th round
2009: Bust draft
2010: Ferland 5th round
2011: Out of the park draft - Granlund 2nd round, Gaudreau 4th round, Brossoit 6th

2012: Kulak 4th
2013: Bust outside the Monahan pick (including 2 other 1st rounders)
2014: Nothing except 1st round Bennett
2015: Kylington 2nd round, Andersson 2nd round, Mangiapane 6th round

2016: Dube 2nd, Fox 3rd
2017: Ruzicka 4th (played some games, but I wouldn't say he graduated).



Nobody has graduated (from any round) since Valimaki in 2017, so although I do actually like a number of these picks over the years, we can't say that they were successful drafts (yet at least). Also interesting to note that for some reason, Phillips doesn't have credit on Hockeydb for his first NHL game, but eliteprospects does.



I do think that the Flames have continued to draft well under Treliving, but I wouldn't say it is better than it has ever been in the last 20 years. Arguably better, arguably worse... but IMO, unquestionably a top 10 drafting team, especially given the relative number of picks overall, and pick values.



Now, would I worry if the Flames make a GM change? Absolutely I would. My point is not to insinuate that Treliving is not drafting well, but merely to point out that this team was already a fairly strong drafting team, and it has continued under Treliving.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:40 AM   #4248
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Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
Treliving has a plan, but it has largely not succeeded because of personnel. He had a plan for goalies prior to Markstrom. It was to use vets as stopgaps until Parsons or Gillies were established. He had a centre plan - Bennett/Monahan. Then Lindholm in the mix. He had a RW plan, but his choices for that slot were bad. His notion of a RHS D to play top 4 with Brodie, Gio and Hamilton was sound - he targeted the wrong guy.

If Gillies/Parsons, Bennett, Neal and Hamonic panned out like the plan assumed, you’d have a strong team at goal, D and down the middle. And you’d have a big goal scorer on the RW. Treliving’s flaw isn’t his plan. It’s mainly his pro scouting, plus just bad luck with goalies.
Good summary.

And there's more than enough reasons to fire the guy if that's how you feel without suggesting there's no plan or identity.

He made some bets and was wrong.

But I'm just not the guy that decides I'm smarter than the GM when things don't work out when I thought they were good moves when they were made.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:41 AM   #4249
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Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
Treliving has a plan, but it has largely not succeeded because of personnel. He had a plan for goalies prior to Markstrom. It was to use vets as stopgaps until Parsons or Gillies were established. He had a centre plan - Bennett/Monahan. Then Lindholm in the mix. He had a RW plan, but his choices for that slot were bad. His notion of a RHS D to play top 4 with Brodie, Gio and Hamilton was sound - he targeted the wrong guy.

If Gillies/Parsons, Bennett, Neal and Hamonic panned out like the plan assumed, you’d have a strong team at goal, D and down the middle. And you’d have a big goal scorer on the RW. Treliving’s flaw isn’t his plan. It’s mainly his pro scouting, plus just bad luck with goalies.
Ok, this makes more sense. Couple this with poor coaching choices and you can see why Flames are where they are.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:44 AM   #4250
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Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe View Post
I noticed that you keep saying this, but I don't agree.
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/...r00005090.html

Nobody has graduated (from any round) since Valimaki in 2017, so although I do actually like a number of these picks over the years, we can't say that they were successful drafts (yet at least). Also interesting to note that for some reason, Phillips doesn't have credit on Hockeydb for his first NHL game, but eliteprospects does.



I do think that the Flames have continued to draft well under Treliving, but I wouldn't say it is better than it has ever been in the last 20 years. Arguably better, arguably worse... but IMO, unquestionably a top 10 drafting team, especially given the relative number of picks overall, and pick values.



Now, would I worry if the Flames make a GM change? Absolutely I would. My point is not to insinuate that Treliving is not drafting well, but merely to point out that this team was already a fairly strong drafting team, and it has continued under Treliving.
TBF there aren’t too many 2018 draftees in the league at all yet. And, of course Calgary had. I licks for quite a while in that draft.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:45 AM   #4251
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Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe View Post
I noticed that you keep saying this, but I don't agree.
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/...r00005090.html


Since the 2008 draft under Sutter, this team has been much a much better drafting team.


2008: Bouma 3rd round, Brodie 4th round
2009: Bust draft
2010: Ferland 5th round
2011: Out of the park draft - Granlund 2nd round, Gaudreau 4th round, Brossoit 6th

2012: Kulak 4th
2013: Bust outside the Monahan pick (including 2 other 1st rounders)
2014: Nothing except 1st round Bennett
2015: Kylington 2nd round, Andersson 2nd round, Mangiapane 6th round

2016: Dube 2nd, Fox 3rd
2017: Ruzicka 4th (played some games, but I wouldn't say he graduated).



Nobody has graduated (from any round) since Valimaki in 2017, so although I do actually like a number of these picks over the years, we can't say that they were successful drafts (yet at least). Also interesting to note that for some reason, Phillips doesn't have credit on Hockeydb for his first NHL game, but eliteprospects does.



I do think that the Flames have continued to draft well under Treliving, but I wouldn't say it is better than it has ever been in the last 20 years. Arguably better, arguably worse... but IMO, unquestionably a top 10 drafting team, especially given the relative number of picks overall, and pick values.



Now, would I worry if the Flames make a GM change? Absolutely I would. My point is not to insinuate that Treliving is not drafting well, but merely to point out that this team was already a fairly strong drafting team, and it has continued under Treliving.
I don't think the 2018 to 2020 drafts have been settled for any teams.

And the 2017 draft has Valimaki in 20th spot for games played despite missing an entire year and a half. Only 17 players have played 100 games so this isn't a settled draft at all.

I like the trends for 2017 and on

And I like the 2016 and 2015 drafts a lot ... which are the only two that are truly settled (or nearing settled).
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:47 AM   #4252
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When no one else wants your players in trades “that make sense” to you, it’s also probably a pretty good indicator that you are misevaluating your own players, and that they are nowhere near as good as you think they are. That could be a good indication that it is time to rebuild.
It might be an indication of this, sure. But not necessarily, or even likely.

Every GM wants to 'win' a trade, and improve their team. That's the point of a trade. Sure, occasionally, there are easy trades where two teams have different needs and each has something the other wants. But those are fairly rare.

Typically, in order for a trade to make sense for both teams, you need assets that the other side covets, that you are willing to give up for the assets you covet, with similar cap hits (in total, if more than one piece), often, but certainly not always, for similar positions, where both GMs think they are improving their team.

That is actually pretty hard to do. And the problem with 'needing a shakeup' and thus looking to trade for trade's sake, is that you are likely to force these issues in order to find a trade that really isn't there. Which almost certainly means you will lose the trade or not improve your team.

Trading is pretty easy if you are looking to rebuild - just trade current assets for future assets. But when neither team is rebuilding, finding workable matches is difficult, especially in the cap era.

Not being able to find a way to improve your team, when your assets could be undervalued due to a bad season for the team, and with the cap frozen due to covid, is not much of a surprise, and hardly indicates that he overvalues his players.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:50 AM   #4253
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The draft statistics have completely changed from 2015 on with Treliving running the hockey operations.

Hanifin is below average?

Waited to long for what? You thought Monahan was going to get hurt every year and the league was going to figure Gaudreau out? Good for you, but you'd be in a tiny minority.
I’d argue that the Flames are still near the bottom of the league in both the NHL and prospect with Treliving running things. But I’d give you that he is better than the previous GMs who were horrific.

Yes Hanifin is mediocre. He is neither good at offense or defense. Not good enough to be drafted in top 6 and not good enough as part of a return for 2 Norris contenders. Yes I know fox didn’t want to sign and we got Lindholm.

The point is Treliving wants to build with the defense and he acquired hanifin and harmonic. That shows he has no clue what a good defense needs.

Last edited by Flamesfan05; 07-25-2021 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:54 AM   #4254
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If Bennett had graduated, gotten better instead of worse, and become the 1C everyone thought he could be on draft day, this team looks totally different.

Totally. Different.


And I can't see how that's on Brad. Flames have gone "off the board" and it didn't work at all. They picked the obvious agreed upon player, and that player didn't pan out strong enough.

If the team got a 1C, a true strong 1C, everything else would work. But they didn't, so they linger as a middling team, exchanging middle pieces for other middling pieces.

Yeah Neal was a bum. That sucked, and again hurt the team, but I don't think anyone expected his total drop-off to uselessness - he'd looked okay with Vegas.

The team slotting is all screwed up, and it's because Monahan has to play 1C and not 2C, which he'd absolutely dominate at.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:57 AM   #4255
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I’d argue that the Flames are still near the bottom of the league in both the NHL and prospect with Treliving running things. But I’d give you that he is better than the previous GMs who were horrific.

Yes Hanifin is mediocre. He is neither good at offense or defense. Not good enough to be drafted in top 6 and not good enough as part of a return for 2 Norris contenders. Yes I know fox didn’t want to sign and we got Lindholm.

The point is Treliving wants to build with the defense and he acquired hanifin and harmonic. That shows he has no clue what a good defense needs.
Hanifin is not mediocre. He isn't great yet, but the potential to be great is there, and he is certainly 'good'.

And you conveniently ignored Tanev.

But yes, Hamonic was a failure.
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Old 07-25-2021, 10:58 AM   #4256
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If Bennett had graduated, gotten better instead of worse, and become the 1C everyone thought he could be on draft day, this team looks totally different.

Totally. Different.


And I can't see how that's on Brad. Flames have gone "off the board" and it didn't work at all. They picked the obvious agreed upon player, and that player didn't pan out strong enough.

If the team got a 1C, a true strong 1C, everything else would work. But they didn't, so they linger as a middling team, exchanging middle pieces for other middling pieces.

Yeah Neal was a bum. That sucked, and again hurt the team, but I don't think anyone expected his total drop-off to uselessness - he'd looked okay with Vegas.

The team slotting is all screwed up, and it's because Monahan has to play 1C and not 2C, which he'd absolutely dominate at.
Absolutely.
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:05 AM   #4257
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I’d argue that the Flames are still near the bottom of the league in both the NHL and prospect with Treliving running things. But I’d give you that he is better than the previous GMs who were horrific.

Yes Hanifin is mediocre. He is neither good at offense or defense. Not good enough to be drafted in top 6 and not good enough as part of a return for 2 Norris contenders. Yes I know fox didn’t want to sign and we got Lindholm.

The point is Treliving wants to build with the defense and he acquired hanifin and harmonic. That shows he has no clue what a good defense needs.
It doesn't show anything.

Your opinion on Hanifin is way off the mark in my opinion, but then my opinion doesn't show anything either.

He was 38th in five on five ice time for defensemen last year, and was part of the 12th best defense pairing of the season.

That's not below average at all.
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:07 AM   #4258
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I don't think the 2018 to 2020 drafts have been settled for any teams.

And the 2017 draft has Valimaki in 20th spot for games played despite missing an entire year and a half. Only 17 players have played 100 games so this isn't a settled draft at all.

I like the trends for 2017 and on

And I like the 2016 and 2015 drafts a lot ... which are the only two that are truly settled (or nearing settled).

Yes, the 2018-present drafts have of course not been settled, which is why I didn't include them. I only included Ruzicka for the 2017 class because he is looking like he might be breaking-into the NHL, but until he does, we can't give him credit. As for Valimaki - that's a 1st round pick, and I didn't include any 1st round picks for any drafts, as your argument was 'beyond the 1st round'. I personally like the Valimaki pick as well, and I think it was shrewd of Treliving (or shrewd of Treliving to allow Button) to pick Valimaki over Liljgren, for instance. However, 1st round picks was not part of the initial argument.


My point is:


Do I think that and agree with the statement: "The Flames have drafted well under Treliving." Absolutely I do. I consider the Flames a top 10 drafting organization, especially given the number of picks and the relative spots that they pick in.


However, I do disagree with the statement that: "The Flames are a better drafting team outside the 1st round than they have ever been in the last 20 years". I think they have been 'just as good' - I am glad that Treliving didn't have a negative impact on that, but I can't say he has had a positive impact given the overall results, though some of that is 'yet to be determined'.
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:14 AM   #4259
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Treliving has a plan, but it has largely not succeeded because of personnel. He had a plan for goalies prior to Markstrom. It was to use vets as stopgaps until Parsons or Gillies were established. He had a centre plan - Bennett/Monahan. Then Lindholm in the mix. He had a RW plan, but his choices for that slot were bad. His notion of a RHS D to play top 4 with Brodie, Gio and Hamilton was sound - he targeted the wrong guy.

If Gillies/Parsons, Bennett, Neal and Hamonic panned out like the plan assumed, you’d have a strong team at goal, D and down the middle. And you’d have a big goal scorer on the RW. Treliving’s flaw isn’t his plan. It’s mainly his pro scouting, plus just bad luck with goalies.
That’s not a plan, those are just individual pieces. Doesn’t take a genius to look at a depth chart and say “hey we need a goalie”

What kind of team is he trying to build? Obviously not a fast team with Tkachuk, Neal, and Monahan in his top 6

I think he lacks a big picture vision of what he actually wants the Calgary Flames to be and play and nothing proves that better than his absolute gong show of a coaching carousel

It’s no wonder his team lacks identity when most of the good players have gone from Hartley hockey to whatever Gulutzan was thinking to Peters to Ward to Sutter in 5 years

Franchise has seemed completely rudderless under his leadership ever since he hired Gulutzan IMO
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:18 AM   #4260
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That's fair.

And to be honest Strange Brew I think you're sort of the anti-Bingo. You're not extreme at all, just more negative than I am which is fine.

It's the extremes though that tend to be more negative than positive that skew the debate.

Nobody is saying give Treliving a life time contract, or the key to the city, or calling him the best GM in the league.

Yet we do see the group that think every single thing he does is wrong. And the "want to look funny on the internet by dropping cutting sarcasm in every single post" crew.

But we don't know what's going on. We can certainly guess at it. But to assume he's doing nothing or that the off season is a failure in July is silly. The horses haven't come around the bend yet, don't call it a winner or a loser.
The anti Bongo. I like that, but hopefully not in all ways.

I 100% agree that it’s far too premature to judge the off season, even if I’m disappointed we didn’t see a forward moved at the draft. And while we can all have our opinions on the off-season, it’s how the team performs next season that matters. It doesn’t seem we are rebuilding, so improves results on the ice and credit should go to the GM IMO.
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