Brad Treliving needs to go

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This is such a pointless conversation without knowing what is actually going on.

I don't want a GM that can't make a decision.

But I also don't want a GM that has himself talked into having to make a decision and just taking what he can get regardless of value.

Without knowing what he's pursued and what he's turned down this is just a conversation where people that hate the guy are saying they hate him, and people that support the guy are saying to keep him.

Not enough information to be upset or defend the guy.

Silly.

I am happy if he does not diminish the Flames already shallow prospect pool and does not sign any UFa’s for term. As long as he leaves the next GM something to work with I am good, because I have accepted that Brad is not the guy who will build a consistently contending team in Calgary.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think this is why the Johnny piece is such an important part of the off-season. He hasn't talked himself into having to make a decision, but the nature of Johnny's contract is (possibly) forcing his hand a bit.

We know there is a pinch point just days away, and I think we all agree that the team should not put itself in the position where they go into next season with a pending UFA Johnny Gaudreau who has a very restrictive NTC. In my eyes, it's a very clear asset management exercise and I'm interested to see how Tree deals with it. We know he's in contract negotiations with Johnny, and I'm hoping we see some sort of decisive action resulting from the outcome of those negotiations.

Exactly.

He needs a clear cut decision from Gaudreau to make a call on what this off season looks like.

I've always wondered if the Gio expansion draft and Gaudreau contract were playing into each other to set things. If it doesn't look like Gaudreau is going to sign then you clearly don't expend assets to keep Giordano. If Gio can't be retained maybe you're less likely to do whatever it takes to keep Gaudreau?

But either way ... lots of off season with a big pressure point this week.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This is such a pointless conversation without knowing what is actually going on.

I don't want a GM that can't make a decision.

But I also don't want a GM that has himself talked into having to make a decision and just taking what he can get regardless of value.

Without knowing what he's pursued and what he's turned down this is just a conversation where people that hate the guy are saying they hate him, and people that support the guy are saying to keep him.

Not enough information to be upset or defend the guy.

Silly.

That seems extreme. You can debate a GM’s performance without knowing any of the things they have tried to do.

I’m not saying some viewpoints aren’t extreme, as some are defending everything and some attack everything, but I don’t see it as a pointless conversation. Other than it is all theoretical, as he is clearly the GM through at minimum the first half of the season.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The thing I do not like about Treliving is it looks like he has no plan. Everything he does is so reactionary. There is zero philosophy and that shows in the lack of team identity. So what exactly are the Calgary Flames? What scares other teams? What draws certain players to want to play here? Looking at this team I have no idea, and sadly, I don't think Treliving knows either.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

…but not bad changes. Coming off surgery, the market will significantly undervalue Monahan, and he will almost certainly be worth more to the Flames than anyone they could have traded him for. Rumours that Johnny wants to go to the East coast may limit the number of teams interested in trading for him until they can negotiate an extension with his agent. With the loss of Gio, the Flames can’t trade away any veteran D. So who can the Flames trade right now that would result in good asset management? We need change for the better, not just change for the sake of change.

I can guarantee that if Treliving is offered a trade that will clearly make the organization better, he will jump at the opportunity. Frankly, I was more worried that he would feel pressured into making a bad trade just to be seen as doing something.

I think you are correct. My guess is monahan has been on the trading block for a while with no takers for the same reason he’s most likely on the trading block. Slow, not physical, always injured.

My guess is they use Gio’s cap space to add a cheaper veteran top 4 Dman and hope Hanifan takes another step.

Also guessing if they can’t move Monahan again he will be off the first line this season. They will make one or two free agent forward splashes which sounds like Coleman and potentially Dvorak. The rest of the bottom 6 forward openings will be filled in via low level free agents or potentially guys like Pelletier.

Will also need to find a backup goalie.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That seems extreme. You can debate a GM’s performance without knowing any of the things they have tried to do.

I’m not saying some viewpoints aren’t extreme, as some are defending everything and some attack everything, but I don’t see it as a pointless conversation. Other than it is all theoretical, as he is clearly the GM through at minimum the first half of the season.

That's fair.

And to be honest Strange Brew I think you're sort of the anti-Bingo. You're not extreme at all, just more negative than I am which is fine.

It's the extremes though that tend to be more negative than positive that skew the debate.

Nobody is saying give Treliving a life time contract, or the key to the city, or calling him the best GM in the league.

Yet we do see the group that think every single thing he does is wrong. And the "want to look funny on the internet by dropping cutting sarcasm in every single post" crew.

But we don't know what's going on. We can certainly guess at it. But to assume he's doing nothing or that the off season is a failure in July is silly. The horses haven't come around the bend yet, don't call it a winner or a loser.

[Vinny01]

Interested if fans would be happier with the Flyers type offseason for the Flames?

Fletcher made things happen this summer.
In: Ellis, Atkinson, Ristolinen
Out: Myers, Patrick, Voracek, Gostisbhere, Hagg, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th

Lots of movement for the Flyers but they paid a pretty penny to make those moves. Risto only has a year left on his deal, where Ellis is signed until he is 36. They gave up futures and picks for these guys.

End of the day the Flyers went out and got stuff done. Would Flames fans be equally happy if they made comparable moves? The Reinhart trade, swap Monahan/Backlund for a comparable questionable contract, futures for a player with one year left on their contract?

It is the tale of 2 GM’s one was incredibly active but I am not sure many if any of those moves will work out, the other hasn’t done anything.

I find myself wanting change because I don’t believe we can run it back with this core again. I hope Treliving’s patience pays off but this team needs more than free agents moving in and out

[VladtheImpaler]

Good discussion. I think we will know within the next week which way the wind is blowing, and will be able to make some evaluations.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The thing I do not like about Treliving is it looks like he has no plan. Everything he does is so reactionary. There is zero philosophy and that shows in the lack of team identity. So what exactly are the Calgary Flames? What scares other teams? What draws certain players to want to play here? Looking at this team I have no idea, and sadly, I don't think Treliving knows either.

Not sure I agree.

He has always said you build up the middle, and expended picks that reflect that. He's gone and got the goaltender, and made a trade to add Lindholm to bolster the center position. He's always tried to build one of the best top fours in the league though it hasn't turned out.

In the draft he's clearly gone to skill and attitude over size and pedigree, and it's completely turned around the scouting department.

He obviously has a battle with your RFAs and don't give up cap space philosophy.

You don't have to like the guy, but it's not hard to see a plan.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Interested if fans would be happier with the Flyers type offseason for the Flames?

Fletcher made things happen this summer.
In: Ellis, Atkinson, Ristolinen
Out: Myers, Patrick, Voracek, Gostisbhere, Hagg, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th

Lots of movement for the Flyers but they paid a pretty penny to make those moves. Risto only has a year left on his deal, where Ellis is signed until he is 36. They gave up futures and picks for these guys.

End of the day the Flyers went out and got stuff done. Would Flames fans be equally happy if they made comparable moves? The Reinhart trade, swap Monahan/Backlund for a comparable questionable contract, futures for a player with one year left on their contract?

It is the tale of 2 GM’s one was incredibly active but I am not sure many if any of those moves will work out, the other hasn’t done anything.

I find myself wanting change because I don’t believe we can run it back with this core again. I hope Treliving’s patience pays off but this team needs more than free agents moving in and out

I don’t mind what Philly did if you remove the Risto deal
That’s the one that I don’t get

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I keep reading the bolded all over this board, or similar sentiments and wonder where this is coming from.

Just purely from an offensive standpoint its just not true.

Once again...since Matthew Tkachuk was drafted into the NHL

he is 44th in the entire league in points.

He is 6th at his position in the entire league in points (Marchand, Panarin, Ovechkin, Gaudreau and Huberdeau the only guys ahead of him)

His 82 game pt average is 65 pts and that was with 2nd line minutes and one very down season.

Then you add in his intangibles and you have yourself a hell of a hockey player.

So maybe he is not worth 9M a year but he also is not getting paid long term that and is unlikely to get that much from anyone in FA.

But to say he isn't elite, at least at his position, is simply wrong unless elite is reserved for only those at the top of every single category.

These are the kind of guys you try to find in every draft or in any trade. They cost an absolute fortune in free agency.

He is a guy you build around and add to, not a guy you look to move unless you are getting an absolute haul back or starting a complete scorched earth rebuild (which this club is not in any way trying to do at this point)

I'm not saying he's not a good player. And I also didn't say he's not elite at his position. I'm saying paying him to be the top or 2nd guy on the team is a bit of a concern to me. The guys making that kind of money should really be able to drive the team and be consistent top of the league players. I have concerns that Gaudreau and Tkachuk can be those guys.

The top pairs in the league have Kucerov and Point, Mackinnon and Rantanen, Pastranak, Bergergon, Marchand, Barkov and Huberdeau, Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin and Backstrom, McDavid and Draisaitl, Matthews and Tavares, Etc.

I'm not saying they can't be the guys to lead your team, especially if you can surround them with good depth (another challenge in itself), but from what I've seen the last 2.5 years it's definitely concerning to me and I don't to have a ton of faith they can be those guys.

[chedder]

Not a Treliving fan but there's no way there are no takers for Monahan. Yes, offers may be weak due to a feeling that someone can steal him. Thankfully we haven't been fleeced in that regard. Seeing if Monahan can rebound and be healthy is a better option than firesaling him.

The real issue is how Tre has painted himself into a corner with Johnny and, moreso, Chucky.

I also agree he's built a team that has no identity.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I'm not saying he's not a good player. And I also didn't say he's not elite at his position. I'm saying paying him to be the top or 2nd guy on the team is a bit of a concern to me. The guys making that kind of money should really be able to drive the team and be consistent top of the league players. I have concerns that Gaudreau and Tkachuk can be those guys.

The top pairs in the league have Kucerov and Point, Mackinnon and Rantanen, Pastranak, Bergergon, Marchand, Barkov and Huberdeau, Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin and Backstrom, McDavid and Draisaitl, Matthews and Tavares, Etc.

I'm not saying they can't be the guys to lead your team, especially if you can surround them with good depth (another challenge in itself), but from what I've seen the last 2.5 years it's definitely concerning to me and I don't to have a ton of faith they can be those guys.

One of those top pairs got past round 2

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I agree.

He has always said you build up the middle, and expended picks that reflect that. He's gone and got the goaltender, and made a trade to add Lindholm to bolster the center position. He's always tried to build one of the best top fours in the league though it hasn't turned out.

In the draft he's clearly gone to skill and attitude over size and pedigree, and it's completely turned around the scouting department.

He obviously has a battle with your RFAs and don't give up cap space philosophy.

You don't have to like the guy, but it's not hard to see a plan.

He may have a plan but his ability to identify talent is questionable

The results reflected that

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

One of those top pairs got past round 2

What does that have to do with Gaudreau and Tkachuk specifically?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

He may have a plan but his ability to identify talent is questionable

The results reflected that

Not sure I agree with that either.

Way more success in the draft past the first round than we've seen in 20 years in Calgary.

UFA wise the Brouwer and Neal signings were an issue for sure, but since then he's been fine in the UFA market.

His big issue and one that I think is enough to go another way if you feel that way is moving picks to bolster a core that wasn't ready or effective. Personally I didn't think Monahan and Gaudreau would face plant either so I don't hold it against him, but if you saw that coming you don't put picks in play to add to them.

But draft wise with picks they've been damn astute in the last five years.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by dino7c

One of those top pairs got past round 2

I believe 4 of those pairs have cups already some even multiple.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I'm not saying he's not a good player. And I also didn't say he's not elite at his position. I'm saying paying him to be the top or 2nd guy on the team is a bit of a concern to me. The guys making that kind of money should really be able to drive the team and be consistent top of the league players. I have concerns that Gaudreau and Tkachuk can be those guys.

The top pairs in the league have Kucerov and Point, Mackinnon and Rantanen, Pastranak, Bergergon, Marchand, Barkov and Huberdeau, Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin and Backstrom, McDavid and Draisaitl, Matthews and Tavares, Etc.

I'm not saying they can't be the guys to lead your team, especially if you can surround them with good depth (another challenge in itself), but from what I've seen the last 2.5 years it's definitely concerning to me and I don't to have a ton of faith they can be those guys.

You are absolutely right, but they all have something in common the Flames don't....at this point anyhow.

An elite center.

Now with the Lindholm move to C and the late season audition of Gaudreau and Tkachuk on his wing, that may be something we see moving forward, but then you have to keep one of JG/MT to keep that status.

If I have to choose one or the other to go forward with and build around, its a no-brainer to me.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I agree with that either.

Way more success in the draft past the first round than we've seen in 20 years in Calgary.

UFA wise the Brouwer and Neal signings were an issue for sure, but since then he's been fine in the UFA market.

His big issue and one that I think is enough to go another way if you feel that way is moving picks to bolster a core that wasn't ready or effective. Personally I didn't think Monahan and Gaudreau would face plant either so I don't hold it against him, but if you saw that coming you don't put picks in play to add to them.

But draft wise with picks they've been damn astute in the last five years.

I am not talking about the draft. Not sure how much he is involved with amateur scouting.

He also spent heavily on the defense and we ended up with Hamonic and Hanifin. One is below average and the other horrific.

He also waited too long on Johnny and Monahan.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He has always said you build up the middle, and expended picks that reflect that.

Except he hasn't. He's paid through the nose to make a couple deals, but has not strengthen the team in any way. The team has gotten worse under his tenure and continues to head in the wrong direction because he is not forward thinking, he is reactionary in his management approach.

He's gone and got the goaltender, and made a trade to add Lindholm to bolster the center position.

In seven years he's finally managed to address the goaltender position... we hope. Last season's performance was not an indication of solving anything, but the hope is Markstrom bounces back and we have a legitimate starter.
That is my belief anyways.

Center ice is a position he has done nothing to address. They addressed the problem by bringing in a guy they initially played on RW, but moved to center our of necessity as Backlund regressed and Monahan suffered through injuries. He has NOT addressed the center ice position in any meaningful way. After seven years running the show we still do not have a centers that make you pause and say, "that's some good center depth." We don't have depth to fill the roster and we don't have a center in the wings that we can expect to step in and challenge any of the veterans for their position. After SEVEN years.

He's always tried to build one of the best top fours in the league though it hasn't turned out.

Well, he tried, but then he decided to move one of the best pieces for lesser return (a good trade!) and then not keep his eye on the prize of improving it where he could. He also didn't have a succession plan in how to address the departure of key players in that regard. The loss of Hamonic, then Brodie, then Giordano, without recouping anything in return, was brutal asset management and left his attempt to build one of the best top fours in the league as a distant and painful memory.

In the draft he's clearly gone to skill and attitude over size and pedigree, and it's completely turned around the scouting department.

And its been pretty much a failure. In seven years we have a top end LW drafted sixth over all (no brainer), a couple of middle six forwards, a middle pair defenseman, a bottom pair defenseman, and a number eight defenseman to show for it. Then we have a minor league team with very few prospects with a realistic shot of playing in the NHL.

He obviously has a battle with your RFAs and don't give up cap space philosophy.

Treliving's best skill. He has done a great job for the most part. I give him all the credit in the world here. He would make an incredibly good assistant GM with this responsibility.

You don't have to like the guy, but it's not hard to see a plan.

I actually like the guy. He's a really nice speaker with an engaging personality. But I don't see a plan, nor any success with this supposed plan. The team has gotten worse at every turn and that's the bottom line. You know, I've been kind of on the fence with Treliving, but you've really solidified my opinion. The results are the bottom line. As nice a guy as he is, it's time for him to go.