2010/2011 Premier League Thread

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by moon

He is the same owner that has been so cheap lately that they lost out on top free agents to their hated rival and have now fallen back to 3rd in their division and an after thought in the American League. I am sure he loves the fact that he has all that extra money from not signing Holliday and instead going with the great defensive Mike Cameron instead.

Red Sox aren't even in the same discussion with the Rays right now and don't look like they will be for awhile.

But he now is able to say he is the owner of teams with the most obnoxious fans in two sports.

So cheap? No, what he has done is trust in the new cutting edge in baseball, sabremetrics, which used 100s of statistics to determine things such as WAR(wins above replacement value) and, tERA(true era) for example and from there these statisticans determine what fair value is for that player.

The Red Sox allegedly offered 170M to Teixiera for example, but the Yankees just overpay every time.

There's been a willingness to spend when necessary, but they have a policy it seems that they won't go very far overboard for a player.

Now, they seem to overspend occasionally(in the case of Dice-K) but they've learned from that mistake.

Also, they've recently given Lackey 82.5m which isn't chump change.

What he has done is invest in youth. I believe the Sox are up there in spending on Latin American youth players, and they go overslot on draft picks. They have a top class academy, with past AL MVP Dustin Pedroia being a good example, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, Clay Bucholz, and Jed Lowrie already playing a solid role on their club.

Similar to how City outbids everyone for any player they want, compared to Arsenal who invest heavily in youth players, and then spend when you're missing a part or 2.

And speaking of Arsenal, many are expecting NESV to be similar to Kroenke both transfer spending wise, and how the new stadium is dealt with.

Highly successful?

LOL

I guess winning a race once and awhile and being a distant 3rd or 4th best team now makes you highly successful.

Although for Liverpool fans I guess 3/4 would look pretty great.

I don't watch NASCAR, but from what I gather they are a financially healthy team, who compete for the top every race and supply engines to lower teams.

I assumed that was pretty good, and from what I've heard they aren't in that spot because Henry has closed the purse.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dagger

So cheap? No, what he has done is trust in the new cutting edge in baseball, sabremetrics, which used 100s of statistics to determine things such as WAR(wins above replacement value) and, tERA(true era) for example and from there these statisticans determine what fair value is for that player.

The Red Sox allegedly offered 170M to Teixiera for example, but the Yankees just overpay every time.

Overpaid? He lead them to a World Series championship. I think any team in the league would overpay for that.

The Sox had more than enough money to pay him but instead they hummed and hawed and Teixiera got tired of it and went with the Yankees offer because they don't nickle and dime guys when it gets to that point.

Also, they've recently given Lackey 82.5m which isn't chump change.

A perfect example of them being cheap again. They could have gone out and got a guy like CC and instead they go the cheap route and are left with a second tier guy like Lackey making way too much with too few results.

What he has done is invest in youth. I believe the Sox are up there in spending on Latin American youth players, and they go overslot on draft picks. They have a top class academy, with past AL MVP Dustin Pedroia being a good example, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, Clay Bucholz, and Jed Lowrie already playing a solid role on their club.

Their youth isn't any more impressive than the Yankees and sure hasn't done much when it comes to producing wins. You shouldn't have to spend money to find guys like Ellsbury and Lowrie. Lester and Buckholz have been good at times but inconsistent, not exactly the type of guys that make up for the numerous misses they have had by being cheap in FA.

I don't watch NASCAR, but from what I gather they are a financially healthy team, who compete for the top every race and supply engines to lower teams.

I assumed that was pretty good, and from what I've heard they aren't in that spot because Henry has closed the purse.

They are certainly not bad but they are lightyears behind teams like Hendricks and Gibbs and really have no shot at winning the championship unless they get a ton of luck.

Decent yes, but hardly very successful.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by moon

Overpaid? He lead them to a World Series championship. I think any team in the league would overpay for that.

The Sox had more than enough money to pay him but instead they hummed and hawed and Teixiera got tired of it and went with the Yankees offer because they don't nickle and dime guys when it gets to that point.

Lol. Don't fool yourself, you're know knocking NESV for not buying a WS title throwing close to half a billion dollars at players in one off season.

They offered a ton of cash, and they decided that there was a point where they were going to cut themselves off at. I don't see what's wrong with that, especially considering they had Kevin Youkillis at 1B. Maybe if they were like the Yanks and without a good player at 1B they would have thrown a blank cheque at him, but they made a huge offer trying to upgrade a position that was already occupied by one of the 5 best 1B.

Oh and just so you know Youkillis' WAR(wins above replacement value - basically an average player) was 5.9 in 09 and 4.2 last year, Teixiera's was 5.4 and then 3.5. Youkillis', better walk%, wOBA(weighted on base%), BAPIP(batting average on balls in play), while having a better UZR and UZR/150(ultimate zone rating).

So, that shows you that NESV did the right thing by not offering Teix more, because they have the better player and they have him for 8 million les per year(almost half off Teix) and for half the length.

A perfect example of them being cheap again. They could have gone out and got a guy like CC and instead they go the cheap route and are left with a second tier guy like Lackey making way too much with too few results.


Their youth isn't any more impressive than the Yankees and sure hasn't done much when it comes to producing wins. You shouldn't have to spend money to find guys like Ellsbury and Lowrie. Lester and Buckholz have been good at times but inconsistent, not exactly the type of guys that make up for the numerous misses they have had by being cheap in FA.

They were different summers. As well, the Yanks rotation wasn't exactly great seeing guys like an old Pettite, Chien Ming Wang, a very young Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Mike Mussina. That's not a very good rotation to throw out there if you plan on winning a world series.

The Sox meanwhile had Beckett, Dice-K(who everyone thought would be excellent), 2 young guys who looked far more promising than Kennedy or Hughes in Bucholz and Lester, and then Brad Penny and Wakefield at the 5 spot.

The question becomes, do you need to spend 160m on a pitcher when you already have one of the best rotations in the majors?

You're comparing Lackey to Sabathia, when you should be comparing Lackey to Burnett, and looking at the stats Lackey has him beat in WAR, xFIP, FIP, much better HR/FB%, GB%(more balls on the ground means less HRs), he gave up less HR/9, and less B/9. Burnett had him beat only in K and K/9.

They both costed the exact same, one just had much better sabremetrics across his career prior to the contract, and continued it after.

So, you keep saying that NESV is cheap and should throw money at any decent player, but the reality is they do there research, determine the value and make an offer. It's yielded 2 titles in 6 years, compared to the Yankees 1.

And upon looking at payrolls they're 4th in the majors, BUT the difference between 2nd and them isn't even 400K. So, we can firmly say that they spend money, they keep the team in healthy financial territory, and they're not handing out money at the player du-jour for the heck of it.

They are certainly not bad but they are lightyears behind teams like Hendricks and Gibbs and really have no shot at winning the championship unless they get a ton of luck.

Decent yes, but hardly very successful.

Alright, fair enough I don't watch NASCAR, but the main thing to me is that they look to be a very healthy team financially and they're in one of the top tiers for teams.

Fine with me.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Lol. Don't fool yourself, you're know knocking NESV for not buying a WS title throwing close to half a billion dollars at players in one off season.

They offered a ton of cash, and they decided that there was a point where they were going to cut themselves off at. I don't see what's wrong with that, especially considering they had Kevin Youkillis at 1B. Maybe if they were like the Yanks and without a good player at 1B they would have thrown a blank cheque at him, but they made a huge offer trying to upgrade a position that was already occupied by one of the 5 best 1B.

Oh and just so you know Youkillis' WAR(wins above replacement value - basically an average player) was 5.9 in 09 and 4.2 last year, Teixiera's was 5.4 and then 3.5. Youkillis', better walk%, wOBA(weighted on base%), BAPIP(batting average on balls in play), while having a better UZR and UZR/150(ultimate zone rating).

So, that shows you that NESV did the right thing by not offering Teix more, because they have the better player and they have him for 8 million les per year(almost half off Teix) and for half the length.



They were different summers. As well, the Yanks rotation wasn't exactly great seeing guys like an old Pettite, Chien Ming Wang, a very young Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Mike Mussina. That's not a very good rotation to throw out there if you plan on winning a world series.

The Sox meanwhile had Beckett, Dice-K(who everyone thought would be excellent), 2 young guys who looked far more promising than Kennedy or Hughes in Bucholz and Lester, and then Brad Penny and Wakefield at the 5 spot.

The question becomes, do you need to spend 160m on a pitcher when you already have one of the best rotations in the majors?

You're comparing Lackey to Sabathia, when you should be comparing Lackey to Burnett, and looking at the stats Lackey has him beat in WAR, xFIP, FIP, much better HR/FB%, GB%(more balls on the ground means less HRs), he gave up less HR/9, and less B/9. Burnett had him beat only in K and K/9.

They both costed the exact same, one just had much better sabremetrics across his career prior to the contract, and continued it after.

So, you keep saying that NESV is cheap and should throw money at any decent player, but the reality is they do there research, determine the value and make an offer. It's yielded 2 titles in 6 years, compared to the Yankees 1.

And upon looking at payrolls they're 4th in the majors, BUT the difference between 2nd and them isn't even 400K. So, we can firmly say that they spend money, they keep the team in healthy financial territory, and they're not handing out money at the player du-jour for the heck of it.

All those supposed great deals that they got sure helped them finish a distant third in their own division, but I guess they can pat themselves on their backs for the good deals they got and how much money they managed to make and not spend back into the club.

I am sure Liverpool fans will be more than happy finishing out of the top 4 so long as the players they have are all on good deals.

Especially when you consider the amount of money that the Red Sox have compared to everyone not named the Yankees.

Its great that Youkilis put up all those awesome numbers. I think the Yankees are more than happy with the guy who actually helped his team to win games in the play-offs and won a World Series ring.

The Sabathia-lackey deals were in different years but it isn't like the Red SOx only have so much money to spend in one off-season. It shows that they are not willing to spend the money needed to win and happy to throw money away on second tier guys when it is top guys like Sabathia, Lee etc. that actually win you games.

[Pagal4321]

Will you two get a room already??

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Spanish waiter has been used as a derogatory term in the media. That's a short form for "the fat Spanish waiter", if I called you the short Korean/Canadian idiot , I am using your nationality in a derogatory manner.

Still not racial.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by moon

All those supposed great deals that they got sure helped them finish a distant third in their own division, but I guess they can pat themselves on their backs for the good deals they got and how much money they managed to make and not spend back into the club.

I am sure Liverpool fans will be more than happy finishing out of the top 4 so long as the players they have are all on good deals.

Especially when you consider the amount of money that the Red Sox have compared to everyone not named the Yankees.

It was a bad year, they happen.... but their method has won 2 titles in 6 years, which is the best in the league in that span.

Lol, way to not respond to facts. You're advice is to throw money at any decent player and say it will work out, I showed you the new current way of thinking and why the Red Sox don't do this and you just come up with "they finished third this year" Oh well.

Here's news for you: the team in front of them heavily believes in sabremetrics as well, and are constructed of a plethora of top 3 selections that were based on sabremetrics....

They'll not spend li

Its great that Youkilis put up all those awesome numbers. I think the Yankees are more than happy with the guy who actually helped his team to win games in the play-offs and won a World Series ring.

The Sabathia-lackey deals were in different years but it isn't like the Red SOx only have so much money to spend in one off-season. It shows that they are not willing to spend the money needed to win and happy to throw money away on second tier guys when it is top guys like Sabathia, Lee etc. that actually win you games.

Way to be ignorant. Yeah, I'm sure the Yankees are happy with their 1B they gave 180m to. They should be.

I also think that the Red Sox are happier with a man that costs half the price, outproduces him and has won 2 world series rings.

Yeah, and that's worked for the Yankees once this decade, has not given much success to the Mets, Tigers, Mariners, Cubs or Dodgers.

The Yankees have 1 title this decade. The Red Sox have 2, so I'd say that the Sox' method has worked out better.

But yeah, I'm sure the Yankees love there 180m man that bats .148 in the playoffs and had 1 dinger and 2 RBIs.

You really are clueless, you keep spitting out repetitive garbage. Please take a second to read what's being posted, take a look to see what the cutting edge is in baseball and how well it works.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dagger

It was a bad year, they happen.... but their method has won 2 titles in 6 years, which is the best in the league in that span.

Those teams were built a lot differently than the approach that they have taken recently.

Lol, way to not respond to facts. You're advice is to throw money at any decent player and say it will work out, I showed you the new current way of thinking and why the Red Sox don't do this and you just come up with "they finished third this year" Oh well.

That's not my advice at all. My advice is that when you can afford to get the better player go out and get him and don't worry about nickels and dimes.

Its fine that they have a new way of thinking but it doesn't help if that "new" way of thinking leaves you behind that other teams in the league.

Here's news for you: the team in front of them heavily believes in sabremetrics as well, and are constructed of a plethora of top 3 selections that were based on sabremetrics....

I have news for you there is more than one team ahead of them both in terms of current quality and in future potential.

Way to be ignorant. Yeah, I'm sure the Yankees are happy with their 1B they gave 180m to. They should be.

I also think that the Red Sox are happier with a man that costs half the price, outproduces him and has won 2 world series rings.

Those two World Series wins will make them feel awesome as they watch team after team pass them by in the American League. But hey at least they can talk about those two rings they won and count their money that they save by not paying players talented enough to get them into the play-offs, let alone a World Series.

i'm sure that WS in 2004 really makes up for the fact the Yankees have kicked the crap put them the past couple of seasons.

Yeah, and that's worked for the Yankees once this decade, has not given much success to the Mets, Tigers, Mariners, Cubs or Dodgers.

Spending money stupidly doesn't work for anyone. The Red Sox have found that out lately by refusing to go after the top players that they can afford and instead going with cheaper, less talented options.

Spending money on top guys like Sabathia and Texiera while augmenting those players with homegrown talent has kept the Yankees competitve for the past 20 years.

The Yankees have 1 title this decade. The Red Sox have 2, so I'd say that the Sox' method has worked out better.

The Yankees have consistently been better than the Red Sox for the past 20 years and better than everyone else during that time I would say their method has worked just fine.

The Red Sox could have had more than 2 titles if they had been willing to spend some of their outrageous profit but instead they hoard their money and miss out on the play-offs.

But yeah, I'm sure the Yankees love there 180m man that bats .148 in the playoffs and had 1 dinger and 2 RBIs.

I am sure they do.

You really are clueless, you keep spitting out repetitive garbage. Please take a second to read what's being posted, take a look to see what the cutting edge is in baseball and how well it works.

I keep spitting out repetitive garbage because you ignore it and come back with garbage that doesn't even matter.

Just because something uses math and stats doesn't mean it is cutting edge. It is so cutting edge that over the past 3 years the Red Sox have failed to win a play-off series. I am shocked teams aren't lining up to follow their "cutting edge" lead.

The fact is that the Red Sox have the ability to spend and compete with the Yankees. The make far more than anyone else and should not miss out on free agents because they are too cheap. They have tried this new stupid defense and speed method the past two seasons and it has been a disaster. They have lost out on free agents because they were cheap not because they couldn't afford them.

be excited all you want about them coming in as white knights but not spending enough, being happy finishing out of the top teams and odd personel decisions sure sound a lot like the complaints that fans had of the old regime.

[valo403]

Two things:

1. The comparison to the Red Sox is flawed if Liverpool fans think it's a plan that will be followed in the EPL. First of all, nothing indicates that Henry is in it for the same reasons. He grew up a Red Sox fan and had that emotional connection that can make the bottom line easier to ignore. He could do great things for Liverpool, or it could be Miami again. That remains to be seen, but either one is rather equally plausible at this point.

2. This is the EPL thread. We don't care about "sabremetrics" or which chubby firstbaseman is better.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by valo403

Two things:

1. The comparison to the Red Sox is flawed if Liverpool fans think it's a plan that will be followed in the EPL. First of all, nothing indicates that Henry is in it for the same reasons. He grew up a Red Sox fan and had that emotional connection that can make the bottom line easier to ignore. He could do great things for Liverpool, or it could be Miami again. That remains to be seen, but either one is rather equally plausible at this point.

2. This is the EPL thread. We don't care about "sabremetrics" or which chubby firstbaseman is better.

Two things:

First of all Henry only got wind of it because a big Liverpool FC fan told him about it, that person is now our managing director. It won't be another Miami. First of all we already have permission to build a new stadium, which Miami wasn't going to get. 2nd of all, our team generates massive revenue and so he can put some of that back into the club, unlike the Marlins who couldn't probably get 15K in the stands for a random game. So it's not really equally plausible, the stadium is just a cash tree for the owners, I'd say the expectation is similar to Kroenke at Arsenal in many ways.

2. This is the EPL thread. One of the things that NESV does is use sabremetrics to determine value. They've already started to do that, and promote that and there is a book(soccernomics) dedicated to this. Managers like Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are both using some of the methods in identifying players already, NESV wants to use the method even more.

The 1B thing was to illustrate money well spent by NESV and proving the value of there methods(both financially and playing wise) compared to the Yankees and City's of the world. The truth is if you talked to a Reds fan and asked if they wanted an Abromovich like character they'd say no, we want to win but not many were that warm to the idea of a man throwing stupid money around.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by moon

Those teams were built a lot differently than the approach that they have taken recently.

That's not my advice at all. My advice is that when you can afford to get the better player go out and get him and don't worry about nickels and dimes.

Its fine that they have a new way of thinking but it doesn't help if that "new" way of thinking leaves you behind that other teams in the league.

No. NESV purely built those teams on sabremetrics. The first thing they did was offer Billy Beane big money, he's the man that had great success with sabremetrics on a cash strapped A's team. He said no so they turned to Theo Epstein who was one of the men in baseball management using that, the Sox hired him as GM. The next thing they did was hire Bill James, the man behind sabremetrics to work exclusively for them.

The result was a title the next year. And then one again 2 years later.

No, you're advice was to throw money at a man like Teixeira who sabremetrics show is an inferior player to Youkillis, and you claim this to be nickle and diming. It's not, it's actually incredibly smart. How can you keep saying he's the better player when he isn't?

Sure, Sabathia is a top notch pitcher and they could have possibly used him, but it's just flat out stupid to give a pitcher at his age and size 7 years and over 160m. Now you again call this nickel and diming, but when you look at pitchers like Barry Zito, Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, and Johan Santana how many would you say truly justify being valued at over 100m? Santana has been good for the Mets, but he hasn't been the Santana the Mets thought they were getting from the Twins, he's been a notch below that. Mike Hampton and Zito just blow, and Kevin Brown was not worth his price tag anyway you slice it.

Now, you claim that this "new way of thinking leaves them behind." How does it leave them behind if the Red Sox have been the most successful team this decade? Tell that to a man like Billy Beane who has won 4 pennants along with a wildcard birth with a payroll in the bottom 7 consistently(with teams like the Mariners spending 100m every year, and Tom Hicks giving Arod a 250m contract) this decade. Tell that to Andre Friedman who has brought the Rays back from obscurity with sabremetrics. Ask Jon Daniels about it, that is if he finds the time while he's in the WS. If anything it brings them to the forefront, and you're behind.

I have news for you there is more than one team ahead of them both in terms of current quality and in future potential.

Those two World Series wins will make them feel awesome as they watch team after team pass them by in the American League. But hey at least they can talk about those two rings they won and count their money that they save by not paying players talented enough to get them into the play-offs, let alone a World Series.

i'm sure that WS in 2004 really makes up for the fact the Yankees have kicked the crap put them the past couple of seasons.

I'm not a Red Sox fan. I'm a Mariner fan. My team is switching over to valuing sabermetrics with Jack Z, and we have a much better prospect cupboard and team than we had with Bill Bavasi, who followed your method by not nickeling and diming players like Richie Sexton, Adrian Beltre, Jarrod Washburn, Jose Vidro, Miguel Batista, Carlos Silva and Kenji Johjima.

The Red Sox right now are in a good position. Epstein has money to spend if he needs it, they're team is full of young players that will be there for years, their pitching staff has 2 top end guys already in the majors, and there prospect cupboard is good.

Now you're just saying dumb things. Those two WS rings make them feel good, while they watch teams pass them? What the hell do you play for every year? Every ing team in the league would love to be as successful as the Red Sox this decade, you're just spewing e.

And yeah, ask any Yankees fan they'll gladly take beating the Red Sox in the season series over being defeated in a 7 game series in the playoffs and they'll also freely be proud to admit their team hasn't been won as many titles as the Red Sox this decade despite spending a colossal amount more. I strongly encourage you to think before you post. It helps.

Spending money stupidly doesn't work for anyone. The Red Sox have found that out lately by refusing to go after the top players that they can afford and instead going with cheaper, less talented options.

Spending money on top guys like Sabathia and Texiera while augmenting those players with homegrown talent has kept the Yankees competitve for the past 20 years.

Refusing to go for top notch players? They've made offers for players like Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, and Johan Santana.

You're absolutely talking drivel. They've found out lately? Yeah, because the Yankees won one WS title doing what they do best, while teams like the Rangers and Rays have made the WS spending not nearly as much.

You keep saying less talented. These stats show that most of the time, they are producing better than your big name players, yet you keep repeating yourself like a broken record. Are you honestly comprehending what sabermetrics is, or are you just being ignorant to the way forward and the trend that will be around for the next century.

Spending money will always keep you in the game, no question. But if you can avoid doing this, or not having the luxury to there is a proven, and more successful way around this but you seem to think the way that worked 20 years ago and stopped working early on in this millenium is better, are you going to tell me that a model T is nicer than a 2010 Enzo next?

How'd the spending work out for the Yankees against the Marlins in 2003? Or the Indians in 07? Or the Rangers one week ago?

You keep talking about top class players and young talent around them. Please tell me who on the Yankees right now besides Cano could step on to a playoff team? You've got Montero coming up, but other than that the assets there aren't to good. The Sox have far more young talent, while having a good core. They've had a bad year, big deal they'll bounce back most likely, at least if you build according to sabermetrics which seems to be the winning philosophy, unless it's a fan like you who would prefer winning games in the regular season than having another title.

[Dagger]

The Yankees have consistently been better than the Red Sox for the past 20 years and better than everyone else during that time I would say their method has worked just fine.

The Red Sox could have had more than 2 titles if they had been willing to spend some of their outrageous profit but instead they hoard their money and miss out on the play-offs.

Cool. Thing is NESV has owned the team for 6 years. I don't care about the 14 before that.

You don't understand that times are changing. I mean colour TVs worked very well for many years, but you know those HD TVs are just that much better.

Progression has been made in the world of baseball, and records indicate this. But please, I have a colour TV in my basement, you're more than welcome to take it since you're into what was good 20 years ago.

Oh really, you say that as a fact? 2 more titles? Wow buddy, didn't know you could just make this up as you went.

I am sure they do.

Was just in NY the last few days, can tell you they aren't. Wrong again.

I keep spitting out repetitive garbage because you ignore it and come back with garbage that doesn't even matter.

Just because something uses math and stats doesn't mean it is cutting edge. It is so cutting edge that over the past 3 years the Red Sox have failed to win a play-off series. I am shocked teams aren't lining up to follow their "cutting edge" lead.

The fact is that the Red Sox have the ability to spend and compete with the Yankees. The make far more than anyone else and should not miss out on free agents because they are too cheap. They have tried this new stupid defense and speed method the past two seasons and it has been a disaster. They have lost out on free agents because they were cheap not because they couldn't afford them.

No, you just say they should spend more in Teixeira because he's a big name. I show you that Youkillis outperformed him before and after the contract he received and you still spit out the same message.

I showed you the other 4 $100m pitchers, and you still think it's smart to give 7 years and $160m to a 30 year old pitcher who ways 300 pounds, as well as 82.5m to a pitcher who was being booed by Blue Jay fans minus his contract year where he had one good strikeout season compared to the same contract given to a much safer and better performing pitcher at the same price. But hey, if you enjoy having that $82.5m man almost not being included in the playoff roster than I guess Burnett is the right man for you.

Maybe you prefer what worked 20 years ago, and spending 200m for 1 WS ring, compared to 2 WS rings at 2/3rds the cost.

Yeah, they've tried this new stupid method and won 2 titles. The Yankees have tried their old method and won 1. Yet, the genius you are can't deduce 2>1.

You keep talking about cheapness, it isn't and the sooner you understand this the better. It's value. It's like one man tipping a good waiter 20% and another tipping an average waiter 30% and the other man calling the other one cheap. One is spending wisely and tipping fairly, and the other may as well be flushing it down the toilet.

be excited all you want about them coming in as white knights but not spending enough, being happy finishing out of the top teams and odd personel decisions sure sound a lot like the complaints that fans had of the old regime.

OK buddy. The debt is cleared, and a new stadium or revamped Anfield is on the way, that's all we really asked for and we've got it. I've said I've been cautiously optimistic the whole time.

You really don't understand what Hicks and Gillett did do you. The first thing they said was that this wasn't a Glazer type deal. It was. The 2nd thing they said was spade in the ground within 60 days. There wasn't and still isn't. The next thing they said is that they'd respect the fans and their traditions, a boardmember and son of Hicks told a supporter to "blow me face" they repeatedly promised big summer after big summer. We spent an average of 3.5MP per YEAR under them. They said they would not go behind Rafa's back. They did with an inferior manager. They made no effort to connect with SOS(supporters union) HJC(Hillsborough Justice Campaign) or even being out in the community.

Yet you still have the audacity to say we'll hear a lot of the same complaints. It's truly sad what you've actually posted and how deluded and straight up wrong about many points.

[rubecube]

Seriously guys, take it to the freaking Liverpool thread already.

[Nuje]

Only if the baseball content is reduced, I don't want that in the Liverpool thread.

[united]

Yeah don't take it there unless you want to be banned via Nuje moaning about posts on an internet forum. Better make your own thread to be safe.
It extends to facts too, if they don't support his opinion or meet his standards it's considered trolling. Throwing out slurs and derogatory comments towards the opposition is strangely supported by him, though.

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Careful...the Spanish waiter lovin' kool-aid drinkers may report you for trolling.

Now he's been banned, shocking.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by united

Yeah don't take it there unless you want to be banned via Nuje moaning about posts on an internet forum. Better make your own thread to be safe.
It extends to facts too, if they don't support his opinion or meet his standards it's considered trolling. Throwing out slurs and derogatory comments towards the opposition is strangely supported by him, though.


Now he's been banned, shocking.

I'm not banned.

I insult all the time sure. But I'm not racial about anything. Rafa was branded a derogatory name with his nationality needlessly attached to it.

Oh and buddy, the GM the Mets hired was one of the first executives to use sabermetrics, kind of going the opposite direction of Minaya who was spending as much as the Sox and doing a lot worse. So we can say that NESVs way is very much the new trend. A trend they'll continue here.

[SuperMatt18]

I usually just lurk around these parts and saw that an argument had broken out a couple days back about Liverpool and Man U and spending in comparison to trophies won. While somebody at the goal.com forums today put together a little chart that I figured fit in this thread.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I usually just lurk around these parts and saw that an argument had broken out a couple days back about Liverpool and Man U and spending in comparison to trophies won. While somebody at the goal.com forums today put together a little chart that I figured fit in this thread.

A couple things. Goal.com is terrible. It makes Eklund look like Darren Dreger and Bob McKenzie put together.

The 2nd thing is that those tables are wrong. Most clubs, especially English ones don't post transfer spending on their websites. I think I've seen maybe 3 figures ever posted on lfc.tv. He claims to have read the clubs figures for 2009-2010 but the problem is that those haven't been officially released, so where is he getting that information?


He began by saying he used the clubs accounts from 1990-2010. He then tweeted that it was until 2009. His latest has been until 2008. He said he filled in the last few years with "websites." Keep in mind that these websites have vastly different spending amounts across the board and that some are so far off it's laughable.

He then states that he's happy to show proof of this from these accounts, he now will not link anybody, to what should be(if he can access it) public knowledge.

He says that all other figures are WRONG. How can he say that when he hasn't even used official documents? Then when people question him, he tells them they have their head in the sand.

Read his twitter, it's amusing how much he's back-pedalled.

Oh and FYI, his past "figures" have been out a while, nobody takes them seriously.

EDIT: one of his latest tweets: For example: in 03-4, MU spent 50.6m; LFC 19m Adjust those figures for inflation and the difference between the two will be the same.

The difference between two numbers when accounting for inflation is never going to be the same.

Seems like the guy that's a genius at crunching numbers can't deduce the easiest of things....

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Dagger

A couple things. Goal.com is terrible. It makes Eklund look like Darren Dreger and Bob McKenzie put together.

The 2nd thing is that those tables are wrong. Most clubs, especially English ones don't post transfer spending on their websites. I think I've seen maybe 3 figures ever posted on lfc.tv. He claims to have read the clubs figures for 2009-2010 but the problem is that those haven't been officially released, so where is he getting that information?


He began by saying he used the clubs accounts from 1990-2010. He then tweeted that it was until 2009. His latest has been until 2008. He said he filled in the last few years with "websites." Keep in mind that these websites have vastly different spending amounts across the board and that some are so far off it's laughable.

He then states that he's happy to show proof of this from these accounts, he now will not link anybody, to what should be(if he can access it) public knowledge.

He says that all other figures are WRONG. How can he say that when he hasn't even used official documents? Then when people question him, he tells them they have their head in the sand.

Read his twitter, it's amusing how much he's back-pedalled.

Oh and FYI, his past "figures" have been out a while, nobody takes them seriously.

EDIT: one of his latest tweets: For example: in 03-4, MU spent 50.6m; LFC 19m Adjust those figures for inflation and the difference between the two will be the same.

The difference between two numbers when accounting for inflation is never going to be the same.

Seems like the guy that's a genius at crunching numbers can't deduce the easiest of things....

The Man Utd figures should be largely easy to verify, they were a public company.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I usually just lurk around these parts and saw that an argument had broken out a couple days back about Liverpool and Man U and spending in comparison to trophies won. While somebody at the goal.com forums today put together a little chart that I figured fit in this thread.

Thats actually a really interesting graph, but what Dagger is trying to get at, and I'll clarify without being quite as condescending about, is that the real hard data is damned near impossible to find.

While you're right, the clubs do release annual Financial reports, thats not the data that hes really digging through, hes using secondary sources to determine club spending and calling them official.

Further, I've looked through the financial reports just now, and while I only briefly looked through them both for the current years, they do their best to hide the transfer spending by lumping all of it into operations, theres almost no way to accurately cut that part out to analyze it solely.

I'll give the guy credit for doing the work, I just cant speak to the accuracy of the data at the end.

Its a long running argument about who spends more between Liverpool and Man U, but I dont think its ever going to get resolved because these clubs, like most clubs, hide their transfer revenues and costs.