[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Press Level]

Originally Posted by BurningSteel

Only Iginla can save us now.

Tij? He's not draft eligible yet.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The thing that stands out to me the most on this is, who was first to make this internal conflict public. In the age of Trump and getting your misinformation out in the public sphere first, it is usually the party who is most responsible for a disagreement or foul to be the first to fire up the social media machine. The sheer fact that the mayor was first to take this to twitter tells me which side stepped in it and wanted to get the fingers pointing in the opposite direction. Honesty in communication is pretty much dead, so first to ask about the fart is the one who really #### their pants.

[Young Guns]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's still a dump, just with some new makeup on it. You can't fix what is a flawed building, and that building is terrible for any event. Sight lines suck, the acoustics are terrible, and the concessions are terrible. The only thing going for the arena is location. Other than that its one of the worst buildings I've been in. Should have been bulldozed.

I use to think the same thing about the Saddledome. Though old, it was fine and maybe a few renos would suffice. After being in the arenas in LA, Vegas and Edmonton....the dome is indeed a dump in comparison.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Young Guns

I use to think the same thing about the Saddledome. Though old, it was fine and maybe a few renos would suffice. After being in the arenas in LA, Vegas and Edmonton....the dome is indeed a dump in comparison.

Its not even necessarily about it 'being a dump' really, its about revenue.

Its tough to generate new revenue streams in a gate-driven league using a building from 1983. The world has changed.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Will there really be a need for a redesign of venue? With the DP approved, couldn't they just sit on this until the market on materials cool down enough that they can pick up from where they left off? A fair amount of money has been invested into the design and such at his point right?

Yeah, it's likely the design isn't touched much, if at all, at this point regardless of what happens between the bickering of the City and CSEC. They could just sit with the DP for a while and hope costs come down. I'm just personally wishing it would be redesigned, and that's solely for selfish reasons.

[Press Level]

Originally Posted by Young Guns

I use to think the same thing about the Saddledome. Though old, it was fine and maybe a few renos would suffice. After being in the arenas in LA, Vegas and Edmonton....the dome is indeed a dump in comparison.

Even Anaheim's nearly 30-year-old arena is light years ahead of the Saddledome. We have the worst building in the league by a mile.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yeah, it's likely the design isn't touched much, if at all, at this point regardless of what happens between the bickering of the City and CSEC. They could just sit with the DP for a while and hope costs come down. I'm just personally wishing it would be redesigned, and that's solely for selfish reasons.

While I'm of the same mind, I also think that if it will be re-designed, it will be to make it even more basic now due to costs.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's still a dump, just with some new makeup on it. You can't fix what is a flawed building, and that building is terrible for any event. Sight lines suck, the acoustics are terrible, and the concessions are terrible. The only thing going for the arena is location. Other than that its one of the worst buildings I've been in. Should have been bulldozed.



It can't be renovated any more than it already has. Again, you can't fix a flawed building, and the Saddledome is a flawed building.

You're putting a lot of stock into a new building and what it will offer fans compared to the Saddledome or any older building's experience. What is the expectation of the average fan that will be looking for a modest or cheap seat (which will likely double at least) in the new building?

- A more accessible and robust concourse
- Improved washroom facilities
- Better access via bigger entrances and exits
- Improved in game experience via new lightboards, screens and other tech

Aside from this you can't really say with any certainty that the sightlines will be any better, and if they are, are they so drastically better that it's worth double the cost of practically any comparable seat you may use?

Either way the benefit to the average fan is miniscule at best unless you're hob knobbing in pricey suites or banking on seeing the half dozen extra concerts/events that may filter in over the course of a year... The whole thing is pretty moot if you ask me. Does this new building need to happen at some point? Sure. But the reality is that the City wants this to position the area for further development, and the Flames want to immediately increase their franchise value by $400M.

Someone is going to blink as there is far too much at stake on both sides at this point. I'd prefer the city to put in the least amount possible here, but at some point you can only wring the towel so much.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Table 5

They should drag this out for a few more years so we can get the final cost to a cool $1B.

Lumber is near an all time low isn't it? We can just make it entirely out of wood and hope a big bad wolf doesn't blow it down.

[Regorium]

I think the City really err'ed in trying to alter the deal further. They got the main concession back in July in a shrewd move by making CSEC responsible for cost overruns.

At this point, you've already won the golden goose, back off and let it ride.

Giving CSEC a way out for climate mitigation is really the dumbest thing the City could do.

[gilligans_off]

A buddy of mine made a good point. He said that a lot of this might have to do with the uncertainty around fan attendance and CSEC not wanting to dish out a bunch of money for an empty building. Makes you think.

[GioforPM]

^^ I think the flawed roof design and its impact on concerts is a factor. But for the team, the additional suites was a huge part.

But this is all about money, not the building itself.

[Table 5]

I'm curious to see what the Flames plan is now. If they are looking to renegotiate further, is this the mayor/council to do it with? While the Flames didn't seem to be fans of Nenshi, at least he was still generally onboard with an arena. Gondek hasn't been from the start, so I don't foresee a warmer relationship between Murray Edwards and this new council.

The Flames really should've got this done when they still had Bronco as mayor. They'd be enjoying revenues from a new arena for a decade now.

[Elkyiv]

I don't think the Saddledome is a bad venue for hockey. So worst case scenario, we keep playing there for longer.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

It looks like CSEC and the City may not even agree, at least publicly, on what the total costs are and what is being proposed. We're back to the bad old days of public negotiations and propaganda.

It's kinda funny/sad how so many jumped in feet first to pick a side or jump off the deep end (relocation? really?) without even knowing the details of the original deal or the changes.

Yeah, bit early, but I think it's just people kind of showing who by nature they usually distrust/dislike more: ruling government, or corporate elites.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’ve slept on it and changed my mind.

I would like the City to pony up the extra tens of millions of dollars. Despite the fact that I might call it taxpayer money in any decision where I don’t like what it’s being spent on, in this case, it isn’t, because I like it. Despite the fact that the City, by nature, has my big-picture best interest in mind as a citizen of the city, I relate more closely to the corporation with likely over $1b in assets, run by a billionaire who lives in London… or umm Switzerland… or ummm I forget but I just know it’s not Calgary (a city he ####s on) because they truly represent “the common man”… you know, like me! I know this because I’ve tried to get a permit to build a balcony on my house, WE ARE THE SAME. Yes, when it comes to extra money where I don’t actually have to pick a side, I choose CSEC. Because the way I was raised, if someone wants something that has no benefit to anyone but them, you should pay for half of it and when prices go up you shouldn’t look for a deal, you should just give up more of your money. I mean, it’s their thing, but it’s your money, and you said you’d give it to them. And only an idiot would refuse to just give someone else money so they can buy something that other person would own. That’s called good business. I know good deals. I make good deals all the time. And this shrill female mayor, who I am not calling shrill because she’s a female and not calling female because there’s anything wrong with that, you know, is just terrible by gosh. I even miss Nenshi, who I also disliked for… reasons, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be pleased! I’m a reasonable and not at all caricature of a human being.

Is it weird I read parts of this in Trump's voice?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

The Suns remodel of their arena is fantastic, it's pretty much a new arena. The cost was $165 mill split between the city of phoenix and the Suns.

Just renovate the god damn Saddledome, it's an icon

If it didn’t have that roof it would be more feasible. Alas, the structure of the building is problematic to begin with.

[BoLevi]

This is great news.

Don't subsidize profitable industries. And for sure don't subsidize unprofitable ones.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Elkyiv

I don't think the Saddledome is a bad venue for hockey. So worst case scenario, we keep playing there for longer.

Ideally the Flames can just stay in the Dome forever until they pay for a new arena themselves. LOL to anyone who thinks they will leave.

Where the new arena was supposed to be the City should build a 12,000 to 15,000 concert hall, that won't cost $300mill...

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I think the City really err'ed in trying to alter the deal further. They got the main concession back in July in a shrewd move by making CSEC responsible for cost overruns.

At this point, you've already won the golden goose, back off and let it ride.

Giving CSEC a way out for climate mitigation is really the dumbest thing the City could do.

Can someone explain why anyone is still talking financials at this juncture anyway? Cost overruns are one thing, and I'm hardly involved in any significant negotiations, but it seems incredibly novice to still be negotiating 3 weeks - month before shovels are meant to turn on a project like this. Can CSEC even legally pull the plug at this juncture when so much has progressed, companies will have staffed up etc?

If Gondek and the city actually reopened the matter to squeeze a little more out of CSEC at this point they are even dumber than I thought and going public with it all as the mayor has basically brought things to the level of scorched earth.