[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

City planners continue to be out of touch with reality. Why anyone would ever want to develop anything of substance in this town is beyond me.

Because real developers don't need hundreds of millions of dollars from the city to get their project built.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

They way I'm reading CSEC's position - I think they have concerns about these "infrastructure and climate costs" as being reasonable and needed in the first place.

I guess I'd have to see some additional details on what these climate and infrastructure costs are for exactly to properly form an opinion. Sounds like solar panels are desired - but what constitutes the infrastructure improvements? Sidewalk or road widening? Urban Realm improvements? It's all relative to what was specified in the July 2021 agreement @$608.5M. I presume they have a detailed Work Breakdown Structure and associated costing that adds up to that $608.5M as an exhibit to that agreement.

It would seem that these climate change and infrastructure costs never made it in to that WBS schedule. Bunk's comments provide some interesting context in that it might have been discussed as and left as a condition of occupancy, but not legally documented as such in the WBS and agreement. So it would seem CSEC has reviewed these costs and ultimately said - I'm not paying for this - it's not necessary. So let's see what these details are first before assigning blame?

I think you would find that there is not a lot “specified” and a lot left open to interpretation. But the $608.5M seems to be the costs as known at the time and even the CSEC release admits there was possibly more to come. Indeed, they acknowledge costs had gone up elsewhere.

I think CSEC likely can do what it wants as far as proceeding. No development agreement like this actually requires a company to continue with a money losing development. It’s not a matter of assigning blame, and, in fact, it’s all likely just negotiation. CSEC probably just wants the City to back off of some of its requirements.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

Disagree. Have files.

Which part are you disagreeing on? That the city usually uses in-house counsel?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Probably that the Flames aren't involved in much litigation.

[Jordan!]

The Suns remodel of their arena is fantastic, it's pretty much a new arena. The cost was $165 mill split between the city of phoenix and the Suns.

Just renovate the god damn Saddledome, it's an icon

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

The Suns remodel of their arena is fantastic, it's pretty much a new arena. The cost was $165 mill split between the city of phoenix and the Suns.

It's still a dump, just with some new makeup on it. You can't fix what is a flawed building, and that building is terrible for any event. Sight lines suck, the acoustics are terrible, and the concessions are terrible. The only thing going for the arena is location. Other than that its one of the worst buildings I've been in. Should have been bulldozed.

Just renovate the god damn Saddledome, it's an icon

It can't be renovated any more than it already has. Again, you can't fix a flawed building, and the Saddledome is a flawed building.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

City planners continue to be out of touch with reality. Why anyone would ever want to develop anything of substance in this town is beyond me. You think you have your project costed, spend millions on plans and a DP application only to let the ivory tower social engineers at the City in the name of vague concepts like climate mitigation (what a joke) loose and impose millions more on your project, because they can. I don’t blame Edwards at all for telling the City (as planning authority) to F off.

Too many SWJs in this city. And now running the city too!

Need to roll the clocks back to 1970 right??

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by devo22

I haven't read about this stuff in detail…...

And you won’t find any detail in the media lol.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bluejays]

Can a lot of this just be chalked up to bad circumstances? The Flames ownership agreed to cost overruns when there were known overruns which were manageable. Now with the supply chain issues where a lot of materials are up way beyond the normal expectation of overruns, I can’t blame ownership at all for wanting to back out for a year or so until things stabilize. And let’s face it, the climate change costs or whatever they’re titling it seem like a bit of a farce so if ownership wants to use that as an excuse, that’s fine. But it really seems like costs have gone up dramatically where unless you have an owner who has a ton of disposable income, it’s totally reasonable that ownership would back out, albeit temporarily.

[shermanator]

Casual reminder that Cavalry built their stadium using 100% private money. Was significantly less money and not within city limits, but they just shut up and build / improve the stadium.

If you want to support a club that doesn't ask for handouts from the public purse, maybe they deserve the support?

[PepsiFree]

I’ve slept on it and changed my mind.

I would like the City to pony up the extra tens of millions of dollars. Despite the fact that I might call it taxpayer money in any decision where I don’t like what it’s being spent on, in this case, it isn’t, because I like it. Despite the fact that the City, by nature, has my big-picture best interest in mind as a citizen of the city, I relate more closely to the corporation with likely over $1b in assets, run by a billionaire who lives in London… or umm Switzerland… or ummm I forget but I just know it’s not Calgary (a city he ####s on) because they truly represent “the common man”… you know, like me! I know this because I’ve tried to get a permit to build a balcony on my house, WE ARE THE SAME. Yes, when it comes to extra money where I don’t actually have to pick a side, I choose CSEC. Because the way I was raised, if someone wants something that has no benefit to anyone but them, you should pay for half of it and when prices go up you shouldn’t look for a deal, you should just give up more of your money. I mean, it’s their thing, but it’s your money, and you said you’d give it to them. And only an idiot would refuse to just give someone else money so they can buy something that other person would own. That’s called good business. I know good deals. I make good deals all the time. And this shrill female mayor, who I am not calling shrill because she’s a female and not calling female because there’s anything wrong with that, you know, is just terrible by gosh. I even miss Nenshi, who I also disliked for… reasons, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be pleased! I’m a reasonable and not at all caricature of a human being.

[ReinhartonD]

Frustrated right now, but really, I think this is often the outcome of hundreds of millions of tax dollars going into sports arenas. Went back and found this old post from flamesnation:
https://flamesnation.ca/2017/09/13/h...na-was-funded/
and I was right in thinking only Alberta hockey teams have gotten direct funding for their arenas from tax dollars. (Yes, I know there are indirect tax breaks and Quebec and Hamilton ponied up tax money to try to seduce teams to move to those cities.)

Hockey revenues are down and most teams are losing money during Covid. Governments aren't doing any better, and so neither wants to pony up more money.

The Flames aren't moving. The Canadian markets are the healthiest in the league. After Arizona there are other U.S. teams like Columbus who will eventually need to be shifted as well. Yes, many American teams can run full capacity--which for a lot of them is $25 tickets that include parking and a concession voucher. The Canadian TV contract is worth more than the U.S. one, even though we only have 1/4 of the teams.

Not worried about the move--still annoyed that the Oilers got their building half tax-funded while we wait for yet more twitter fighting until finally something gets done. It will be done eventually, though maybe with a different model, and maybe even a different ownership.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Casual reminder that Cavalry built their stadium using 100% private money. Was significantly less money and not within city limits, but they just shut up and build / improve the stadium.

If you want to support a club that doesn't ask for handouts from the public purse, maybe they deserve the support?

"stadium" not even remotely comparable here.

Event center & arena district a huge infrastructure change to the entire Calgary downtown landscape and entertainment district.

Outdoor "stadium" built on the land owned by the Southern family...

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Casual reminder that Cavalry built their stadium using 100% private money. Was significantly less money and not within city limits, but they just shut up and build / improve the stadium.

If you want to support a club that doesn't ask for handouts from the public purse, maybe they deserve the support?

It’s annoying you keep comparing something like loose moose theatre to an almost billion dollar project.

[Muta]

Crappy situation for all, but selfishly I'd like to see this project go back to the drawing board, including a re-design of the project with a new architect, preferably 100% local. The talent is already here in multiple firms. Keep the fees (including construction, no need for an American partner as is the current setup) 100% local.

My interest in hockey has waned for several years now though, so I don't really feel the need to blame either way. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle between what the City is saying and what CSEC is saying.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Casual reminder that Cavalry built their stadium using 100% private money. Was significantly less money and not within city limits, but they just shut up and build / improve the stadium.

If you want to support a club that doesn't ask for handouts from the public purse, maybe they deserve the support?

Roundball


That's a no from me Dawg.

[Joborule]

Will there really be a need for a redesign of venue? With the DP approved, couldn't they just sit on this until the market on materials cool down enough that they can pick up from where they left off? A fair amount of money has been invested into the design and such at his point right?

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Yoho

It’s annoying you keep comparing something like loose moose theatre to an almost billion dollar project.

It's annoying that the Flames have been threatening to leave this city for a decade if they don't get a significant handout.

Just providing an alternative for the posters in this thread who don't want to support an ownership group that constantly holds this city hostage.

[BurningSteel]

Only Iginla can save us now.

[DJones]

Teams statement pretty much aligns with what I expected.

Costs have increased substantially and they have no intention of eating it all. That's really the whole story. What they budgeted 2 years ago is no longer reality, not even close.

2017-2019 was always the time to get it done, similar to Edmonton.