63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[Nage Waza]

Lots of ignorance in this thread, especially the routine finger pointing at Israel. If Israel did not exist, the region would probably be worse off. The region of Israel would be a mix of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and who knows who else, that is if they are even done fighting after the brits left. The concept of Palestinians would likely not exist, and whatever gains these nations have had since Israel came to be, would likely also not exist. There is not a good track record for those countries, and we can look at other countries that are similar to see where they have come since WW2. Without Israel, the same conflicts exist across Africa, with the prosecution of Christians leading the way. Israel is just a country to blame while wealthy elite redirect the suffering of their people away from themselves. The fact anyone in Canada (or elsewhere in the free world) can't see this, is actually embarrassing.

We should add as well that the creation of Israel brought about human rights in the region, including a focus on minority rights, gay rights, woman's rights and pretty much everything else in the humanities. The victim attitude that Israel caused all the problems just doesn't hold up. Jews that survived the holocaust flourished, Palestinians living side by side with Jews had a real opportunity, and could have led the way for the region. The creation of the state of Israel should have been a good thing, instead Palestinian leaders have done everything possible to make it bad for themselves. The people are the victims in this, and the blame Israel attitude in this thread allows that victimhood to continue, in fact it enables it.

Yes, Israel was created and there was turmoil, but the Jews were always there and tried to bring about peace in the region. And yes, when you blame everything on Israel, and have a different set of rules for that country, repeating falsehoods meant to discredit Israel, then yes, it is anti-semitism.

The mental gymnastics that goes on and on by the same posters trying to figure out how to blame Israel would be comedic except for the fact that this dangerous mindset is very common, taught across university campuses.

On top of all that, with the terrible human rights in many of the middle east countries, the far left demonizes Israel and celebrates some of the human rights abuses. It is very ironic.

Sam Harris podcast #175 Leaving the Faith is must listening on this topic.

Back to the original topic, Iran has been a major sponsor of terrorism, with dead bodies piling up as the usual suspects remain silent. The world has pretty much let Iran do this, enabling them with the constant blame on Israel. This is in my opinion the root cause of the plane exploding. The enabling has to stop, from the UN to the people in this thread.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by opendoor

And to be fair, this applies equally to countries like Russia and China as well. But the notion that oil reserves aren't a massive (and the primary) factor in US Middle Eastern just because the US has a secure oil supply is ridiculously simplistic.

Iran also has massive deposits of lithium which is becoming more and more valuable.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

long, incoherent, racist rant.

Lol.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Lots of ignorance in this thread, especially the routine finger pointing at Israel. If Israel did not exist, the region would probably be worse off. The region of Israel would be a mix of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and who knows who else, that is if they are even done fighting after the brits left. The concept of Palestinians would likely not exist, and whatever gains these nations have had since Israel came to be, would likely also not exist. There is not a good track record for those countries, and we can look at other countries that are similar to see where they have come since WW2. Without Israel, the same conflicts exist across Africa, with the prosecution of Christians leading the way. Israel is just a country to blame while wealthy elite redirect the suffering of their people away from themselves. The fact anyone in Canada (or elsewhere in the free world) can't see this, is actually embarrassing.

We should add as well that the creation of Israel brought about human rights in the region, including a focus on minority rights, gay rights, woman's rights and pretty much everything else in the humanities. The victim attitude that Israel caused all the problems just doesn't hold up. Jews that survived the holocaust flourished, Palestinians living side by side with Jews had a real opportunity, and could have led the way for the region. The creation of the state of Israel should have been a good thing, instead Palestinian leaders have done everything possible to make it bad for themselves. The people are the victims in this, and the blame Israel attitude in this thread allows that victimhood to continue, in fact it enables it.

Yes, Israel was created and there was turmoil, but the Jews were always there and tried to bring about peace in the region. And yes, when you blame everything on Israel, and have a different set of rules for that country, repeating falsehoods meant to discredit Israel, then yes, it is anti-semitism.

While it’s really quite clear where you stand, your assertions here are baseless, mislead or flat out wrong. I’d suggest you read up a little bit more on the subject. Or are we supposed to just pretend that Israel peacefully negotiated the Sinai peninsula during the Suez crisis or the West Bank from Jordan?

Your assertion that it’s anti-Semitic to not think the way you’ve outlined is absurd, and incredibly ignorant.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Iran also has massive deposits of lithium which is becoming more and more valuable.

Link? I've never heard Iran has any Lithium, if they do I suspect it would be of the hard rock variety

[BlackArcher101]

Clearly this is all a conspiracy to strengthen the foothold of the supply of dates from the other middle east countries.

Wtf are you all even on about in this thread?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Link? I've never heard Iran has any Lithium, if they do I suspect it would be of the hard rock variety

Google Namu Lake and Lithium, deposits were found a few years ago, as its a salt lake my guess is it is silt deposits but I don't know

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Lots of ignorance in this thread, especially the routine finger pointing at Israel. If Israel did not exist, the region would probably be worse off. The region of Israel would be a mix of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and who knows who else, that is if they are even done fighting after the brits left. The concept of Palestinians would likely not exist, and whatever gains these nations have had since Israel came to be, would likely also not exist. There is not a good track record for those countries, and we can look at other countries that are similar to see where they have come since WW2. Without Israel, the same conflicts exist across Africa, with the prosecution of Christians leading the way. Israel is just a country to blame while wealthy elite redirect the suffering of their people away from themselves. The fact anyone in Canada (or elsewhere in the free world) can't see this, is actually embarrassing.

We should add as well that the creation of Israel brought about human rights in the region, including a focus on minority rights, gay rights, woman's rights and pretty much everything else in the humanities. The victim attitude that Israel caused all the problems just doesn't hold up. Jews that survived the holocaust flourished, Palestinians living side by side with Jews had a real opportunity, and could have led the way for the region. The creation of the state of Israel should have been a good thing, instead Palestinian leaders have done everything possible to make it bad for themselves. The people are the victims in this, and the blame Israel attitude in this thread allows that victimhood to continue, in fact it enables it.

Yes, Israel was created and there was turmoil, but the Jews were always there and tried to bring about peace in the region. And yes, when you blame everything on Israel, and have a different set of rules for that country, repeating falsehoods meant to discredit Israel, then yes, it is anti-semitism.

The mental gymnastics that goes on and on by the same posters trying to figure out how to blame Israel would be comedic except for the fact that this dangerous mindset is very common, taught across university campuses.

On top of all that, with the terrible human rights in many of the middle east countries, the far left demonizes Israel and celebrates some of the human rights abuses. It is very ironic.

Sam Harris podcast #175 Leaving the Faith is must listening on this topic.

Back to the original topic, Iran has been a major sponsor of terrorism, with dead bodies piling up as the usual suspects remain silent. The world has pretty much let Iran do this, enabling them with the constant blame on Israel. This is in my opinion the root cause of the plane exploding. The enabling has to stop, from the UN to the people in this thread.

couple of points, first I have never, nor would ever compare human rights in Israel to the rest of the Middle East, they aren't even close and only a fool would think otherwise.

Secondly I have never blamed or pointed a finger at Israel for 'the turmoil' or anything else, I have stated the way that Israel was created is a part, just a part, of the reason the Muslim world resents the west, but our exploitation of the Middle East and support of brutal thuggish regimes is also just as responsible for that, 'the west' is resented for this in many places outside the Middle East.

I understand totally why Jew's who have spent a thousand years praying 'next year in Jerusalem' wanted a Jewish State in the Holy Land even before the horrors of the Shoah, I don't blame Israel for defending itself when attacked and I am clear that Jordan Egypt and Syria attacked Israel and I make no defense for that, but I am also clear that the Muslims that suffered for this were not Syrians Egyptians or Jordanians to any great extent, it was the poor schmo Palestinians that ended up losing their meager possessions and housing as a result of a war they frankly had little part in (were they cheering the Arab League on? probably but that doesn't mean they deserved to lose everything of their already crappy poverty stricken existence).

I personally have little moral issue with Israel at all, I think that on a practical level its actions are short sighted, that it is, and always will be, in a very vulnerable position and that its best course of action practically is to make peace no matter how difficult, that while I do not blame Israel for keeping much of the territory it has taken defending itself in the long run the conflict will poison Israel internally, leading to a nation crippled by its defensive state of mind and giving land back is a better solution for Israel's survival in the long run.
I say this because my handful of Israeli friends in Vancouver all left Israel because they just didn't want to live in a constant state of siege anymore.

The only reason Israel even comes into this is because my only point in this whole debate was to point out that nothing 'we' in the west do, in particular the US, UK and Israel, will ever make anything better there, our every intervention is doomed to fail regardless of our intent because of the baggage we bring, and until we realise we are not the good guys, they ain't either granted, but that doesn't alter the fact that we aren't.

We invaded Iraq and that created Isis, Israel invaded the Lebanon and spawned Hezbollah, nothing we do there will work out the way we want it too because we are part of the problem, that in the end by supporting the House of Saud we are doing no more than massively arming the chaotic anarchic Muslim regime that will overthrow the house of Saud in the next few years, and at that point the west will scratch its collective head and wonder why we couldn't see it coming or predict that a Saudi state just like an Iraq or Iran only armed to the teeth with the best weapons money can buy was a bad idea.

Nothing we do in the region seems to happen for any better reason than just staggering on for another day keeping a lid on things with seemingly no thought as to what the next decade will bring

[cam_wmh]

I can agree, that the two most vile & influential governments in the middle east, are the House of Saud, and the Ayatollah.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by 81MC

While it’s really quite clear where you stand, your assertions here are baseless, mislead or flat out wrong. I’d suggest you read up a little bit more on the subject. Or are we supposed to just pretend that Israel peacefully negotiated the Sinai peninsula during the Suez crisis or the West Bank from Jordan?

Your assertion that it’s anti-Semitic to not think the way you’ve outlined is absurd, and incredibly ignorant.

Incredible.

[PsYcNeT]

Israel, like any other democratic country, has it's governmental fluctuations that make it better or worse. Lets not whitewash history and pretend Netanyahu would do anything other than stand pat on previous policy decisions. LGBT protections being handed as a moral win to Likud is like saying Stephen Harper championed those same rights here.

Activists had to fight tooth and nail to get what they got in Israel and Likud weren't the governments that handed it to them. They just get to pretend they're some bastion of freedom in a sea of #### because more sane and kind governments figured it out before/after them.

This article from the Yale review is a good primer on how they have suppressed the movement for same-sex marriage:

http://yris.yira.org/acheson-prize/2453

[CaptainCrunch]

News reports have Protesters in Iran being tear gassed, beaten and shot. One Video clip of a protester who had been shot.

[CaptainCrunch]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1216749134348201985

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

News reports have Protesters in Iran being tear gassed, beaten and shot. One Video clip of a protester who had been shot.

I guess that must be Trump's fault as well...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Israel, like any other democratic country, has it's governmental fluctuations that make it better or worse. Lets not whitewash history and pretend Netanyahu would do anything other than stand pat on previous policy decisions. LGBT protections being handed as a moral win to Likud is like saying Stephen Harper championed those same rights here.

Activists had to fight tooth and nail to get what they got in Israel and Likud weren't the governments that handed it to them. They just get to pretend they're some bastion of freedom in a sea of #### because more sane and kind governments figured it out before/after them.

This article from the Yale review is a good primer on how they have suppressed the movement for same-sex marriage:

http://yris.yira.org/acheson-prize/2453

I have no idea what the point of this post is.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

https://twitter.com/user/status/1216749134348201985

she gone

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Israel, like any other democratic country, has it's governmental fluctuations that make it better or worse. Lets not whitewash history and pretend Netanyahu would do anything other than stand pat on previous policy decisions. LGBT protections being handed as a moral win to Likud is like saying Stephen Harper championed those same rights here.

Activists had to fight tooth and nail to get what they got in Israel and Likud weren't the governments that handed it to them. They just get to pretend they're some bastion of freedom in a sea of #### because more sane and kind governments figured it out before/after them.

This article from the Yale review is a good primer on how they have suppressed the movement for same-sex marriage:

http://yris.yira.org/acheson-prize/2453

Originally Posted by peter12

I have no idea what the point of this post is.

Not only that, it's totally inaccurate. Gay rights in Israel were largely decided by the court system, not some system of persecuted activists.

Likud is also a secular party, with most factions, including Netanyahu himself, supporting gay rights. Netanyahu just appointed the first openly gay minister to his cabinet, and he has a long track record of speaking out in favor of gay rights.

Likud is centre right, which forces them into alliances with right wing and orthodox religious parties. The Israeli parliamentary system usually results in dozens of parties holding seats in parliament, and it's simply not possible to have a government without compromising politically to form alliances. Unfortunately, Likud has been forced to compromise on gay rights to remain in power.

What's the "point of this post"? To use a bunch of false statements to paint Israel as bigoted towards gay people, when nothing could be further from the truth.

While were on the topic, what's the gay rights situation like in Mecca and the Vatican?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Lots of ignorance in this thread, especially the routine finger pointing at Israel. If Israel did not exist, the region would probably be worse off. The region of Israel would be a mix of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and who knows who else, that is if they are even done fighting after the brits left. The concept of Palestinians would likely not exist, and whatever gains these nations have had since Israel came to be, would likely also not exist. There is not a good track record for those countries, and we can look at other countries that are similar to see where they have come since WW2. Without Israel, the same conflicts exist across Africa, with the prosecution of Christians leading the way. Israel is just a country to blame while wealthy elite redirect the suffering of their people away from themselves. The fact anyone in Canada (or elsewhere in the free world) can't see this, is actually embarrassing.

We should add as well that the creation of Israel brought about human rights in the region, including a focus on minority rights, gay rights, woman's rights and pretty much everything else in the humanities. The victim attitude that Israel caused all the problems just doesn't hold up. Jews that survived the holocaust flourished, Palestinians living side by side with Jews had a real opportunity, and could have led the way for the region. The creation of the state of Israel should have been a good thing, instead Palestinian leaders have done everything possible to make it bad for themselves. The people are the victims in this, and the blame Israel attitude in this thread allows that victimhood to continue, in fact it enables it.

Yes, Israel was created and there was turmoil, but the Jews were always there and tried to bring about peace in the region. And yes, when you blame everything on Israel, and have a different set of rules for that country, repeating falsehoods meant to discredit Israel, then yes, it is anti-semitism.

The mental gymnastics that goes on and on by the same posters trying to figure out how to blame Israel would be comedic except for the fact that this dangerous mindset is very common, taught across university campuses.

On top of all that, with the terrible human rights in many of the middle east countries, the far left demonizes Israel and celebrates some of the human rights abuses. It is very ironic.

Sam Harris podcast #175 Leaving the Faith is must listening on this topic.

Back to the original topic, Iran has been a major sponsor of terrorism, with dead bodies piling up as the usual suspects remain silent. The world has pretty much let Iran do this, enabling them with the constant blame on Israel. This is in my opinion the root cause of the plane exploding. The enabling has to stop, from the UN to the people in this thread.

Has Israel ever done anything wrong?

The answer to that really defines whether there is any point in further discussion with you on the topic.

Israel has established many great things in the region and is an obvious bastion for coexistence by middle eastern standards.

That said, this is not sports. You don't need to be on "Team Israel" and cheer all they do or be labelled an anti-Semite. I think Canada is great. I love living here. Wow are we ####ty about somethings though, and have a pretty ugly corners of our past. It's healthy to admit that. Watching any interactions of "settlers", the Israeli military and Palestinians shows some very clear missteps in creating further peace in the region by Israelis, and that shouldn't be brushed under the carpet. That doesn't mean you don't think Israel is illegitimate, nor does it mean you don't think that on the whole Israelis are a good people.

There are ####ty people everywhere. The group of ####ty people in Israel are really not helping with any overarching progress toward making peace with their neighbours. Their actions shouldn't be excused. Nor should the detract from the actions of the non-####ty Israelis.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

You don't need to be on "Team Israel" and cheer all they do or be labelled an anti-Semite.

Unfortunately with Nage Waza, there has never been a grey area on this topic. You are pro-Israel or literally Hitler. Pick a side, ya bumface.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Unfortunately with Nage Waza, there has never been a grey area on this topic. You are pro-Israel or literally Hitler. Pick a side, ya bumface.

There is a way people criticize Israel which has a particularly nasty and disingenuous tone.