YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[Shnabdabber]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well what we'd actually like is for posters to be able to reflect and recognize the language and attitudes they're bringing to the boards, and hopefully adjust in such a way that makes the board more welcoming to our female members. And maybe to exercise a bit more empathy to said members.

Would/should this sentiment be included towards those of various religious or spiritual backgrounds?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

Would/should this sentiment be included towards those of various religious or spiritual backgrounds?

That's probably a different thread, but things like gender/race/orientation are something that someone is, while religion/philosophy/political/ideology are something that someone thinks.

Criticising gender is bad, criticising ideas is good (since if an idea can't stand up to criticism it's a bad idea).

That said things can be discussed with varying degrees of hostility, but that's not something limited to religion by far.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well what we'd actually like is for posters to be able to reflect and recognize the language and attitudes they're bringing to the boards, and hopefully adjust in such a way that makes the board more welcoming to our female members. And maybe to exercise a bit more empathy to said members.

Right, and you'd like to do this by closing the YLYL thread and more heavy modding throughout the forum. I get where you want to go, I'm just making sure I understand how you intend to get there.

[photon]

I don't know, I think the tolerance of negative language towards homosexuals has vastly decreased over the years, but I wouldn't say that came as a result of more heavy modding per se, more just adding to the things mods take action on.. which I guess might be more heavy, but it's not like we added 2 mods to clamp down on anti-gay slurs.

[Shnabdabber]

Originally Posted by photon

That's probably a different thread, but things like gender/race/orientation are something that someone is, while religion/philosophy/political/ideology are something that someone thinks.

Criticising gender is bad, criticising ideas is good (since if an idea can't stand up to criticism it's a bad idea).

That said things can be discussed with varying degrees of hostility, but that's not something limited to religion by far.

I get the criticizing angle, or disagreeing which can create constructive conversation, what I am asking about is outright negative language that religious groups may find offensive that contributes nothing to the dialogue?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Right, and you'd like to do this by closing the YLYL thread and more heavy modding throughout the forum. I get where you want to go, I'm just making sure I understand how you intend to get there.

I hope that the good people* of CP, having now had the POV of others explicitly laid out for them, will have enough compassion and empathy to realize on their own accords why the YLYL thread is considered harmful by many women posters here and just let it die a natural death. If that's just hopelessly optimistic, though, then yes, I think the mods should step in and close the thread.

*And you are good people, for the most part! I was very proud of this community's reaction to that misogynistic jerk who started the MGTOW thread.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by woob

From interpreting the vibe of this thread and what's been discussed, it feels to me like even if the YLYL thread goes the way of the dodo bird, participants are actually looking for more a change across the entire Forum, from FoI to the Off Topic Forum.

Yes, ditching the YLYL thread is an excellent step in that direction, but I think the discussion now needs to focus on what are we striving for?

Excellent question. Personally I think (hope) this thread has probably already done a lot for the change I'm hoping for by making again a few more people aware of this stuff.

One specific thing comes to mind. I don't really get why talking about illegal sports streams is not allowed, but openly encouraging people to go watch stolen celebrity pictures is allowed. (Especially since sites and packages that spread those pics regularly include pictures of underage girls, just like in this case.)

On the surface, the easy answer is mods, but I don't think mods want to deal with trying to determine what's ok/what's not when it comes to a lot of these items that often have significant grey areas.

I agree to a certain extent, but then again moderation is always partially about making decisions on things in grey areas. Nature of the "job".

onus on the user base to self police

I think the amount of self-policing on the site is about right now, since things are mostly pretty civil and relatively peaceful.

Some amount of self-policing is healthy, but strong self-policing quickly runs a risk of creating an unnecessarily homogenous site. Plus doing a lot more self-policing would come with the risk of this site getting into constant flame wars.

[woob]

Let me clarify, by self policing I meant a specific person taking a moment to ask themselves if what they're about to post sexist/racist etc. Ie: "If I call that Canuck fan a destructive rioter, am I just applying a negative stereotype on them that is likely not true."

[Itse]

Oh, and one thing:

I'm all for having more threads about where lines should be drawn and all that, but please let's not start any new ones right away?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by woob

Let me clarify, by self policing I meant a specific person taking a moment to ask themselves if what they're about to post sexist/racist etc. Ie: "If I call that Canuck fan a destructive rioter, am I just applying a negative stereotype on them that is likely not true."

Your example, like Edmonton is no good.

[Chill Cosby]

I think the positivity and calmness this evening is pretty uplifting.

Just wanted to add what everyone knows, which is that nobody is perfect. I can't speak for them directly, but I don't believe the women in this thread would ask anyone to go back in time and never have been wrong (because: science), but I think having the humility to admit that something you were doing was having a negative impact on someone, whether or not you can relate to it, is a huge positive step.

In that sense, it's not about having to agree that the YLYL thread is sexist or misogynistic, because maybe that takes a little time, but rather that it does unintended harm to many of the female posters here. Even if you think something is great, would you still do it if you knew you were hurting others?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't know, I think the tolerance of negative language towards homosexuals has vastly decreased over the years, but I wouldn't say that came as a result of more heavy modding per se, more just adding to the things mods take action on.. which I guess might be more heavy, but it's not like we added 2 mods to clamp down on anti-gay slurs.

Yep, I'm a perfect example of this. I used to use fag as a slur on CP all the time because a) I thought it sounded funny (stupid, looking back) and b) I thought because I was so in favour and supportive of equal rights that I was somehow exempt from being in the wrong while using it.

It was never moderation that drove me away from it, it was a specific discussion, and many comments from other users that eventually made me reflect on my use of the word and then stop using it. In other words, the culture of Calgarypuck dictated that the word fag would no longer be socially acceptable here, and now when I see people use it, I cringe.

More recently, I was using the term "######ed". I didn't mean it maliciously, I just kind of used it, just like how a just kind of used the word fag. Then someone didn't respond directly to me, but 8 posts after mine said something like "I can't believe people use the word ######ed in a derogatory way in 2014, that shouldn't be acceptable on CP".

So I stopped using that, too. And really that's what I hope this thread and the eventual removal of the YLYL thread will do; Cause people to take a step back and go "Okay, this isn't just about the thread, it's about our culture on the board. Who's being marginalized? How am I offending them and making them feel like they don't fit on CP? Am I a decent person, and should therefore just simply make an effort to be more inclusive?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yep, I'm a perfect example of this. I used to use fag as a slur on CP all the time because a) I thought it sounded funny (stupid, looking back) and b) I thought because I was so in favour and supportive of equal rights that I was somehow exempt from being in the wrong while using it.

It was never moderation that drove me away from it, it was a specific discussion, and many comments from other users that eventually made me reflect on my use of the word and then stop using it. In other words, the culture of Calgarypuck dictated that the word fag would no longer be socially acceptable here, and now when I see people use it, I cringe.

More recently, I was using the term "######ed". I didn't mean it maliciously, I just kind of used it, just like how a just kind of used the word fag. Then someone didn't respond directly to me, but 8 posts after mine said something like "I can't believe people use the word ######ed in a derogatory way in 2014, that shouldn't be acceptable on CP".

So I stopped using that, too. And really that's what I hope this thread and the eventual removal of the YLYL thread will do; Cause people to take a step back and go "Okay, this isn't just about the thread, it's about our culture on the board. Who's being marginalized? How am I offending them and making them feel like they don't fit on CP? Am I a decent person, and should therefore just simply make an effort to be more inclusive?

Man, great post.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yep, I'm a perfect example of this. I used to use fag as a slur on CP all the time because a) I thought it sounded funny (stupid, looking back) and b) I thought because I was so in favour and supportive of equal rights that I was somehow exempt from being in the wrong while using it.

It was never moderation that drove me away from it, it was a specific discussion, and many comments from other users that eventually made me reflect on my use of the word and then stop using it. In other words, the culture of Calgarypuck dictated that the word fag would no longer be socially acceptable here, and now when I see people use it, I cringe.

More recently, I was using the term "######ed". I didn't mean it maliciously, I just kind of used it, just like how a just kind of used the word fag. Then someone didn't respond directly to me, but 8 posts after mine said something like "I can't believe people use the word ######ed in a derogatory way in 2014, that shouldn't be acceptable on CP".

So I stopped using that, too. And really that's what I hope this thread and the eventual removal of the YLYL thread will do; Cause people to take a step back and go "Okay, this isn't just about the thread, it's about our culture on the board. Who's being marginalized? How am I offending them and making them feel like they don't fit on CP? Am I a decent person, and should therefore just simply make an effort to be more inclusive?

Excellent post. I am very much the same way with certain words, fag, ######, gay etc. I personally never associated those terms to be derogatory towards certain groups but certainly understand that they are. Used among friends, sporting endeavors what have you. Never thought to much of it really. Than, a few months ago a friend that now lives in Montreal posted on his facebook that a person had yelled out the word ###### while on the train towards my friend and his boyfriend as they were exciting. Of course this angered my friend to no end. It can me hard at times to comprehend how much words can hurt people but reading his post you could sense his anger and also his disappointment. Nobody said or did anything, not a sorry or what a prick nothing. I think that got to him more, nobody stepping up.

Personally words, images etc have never had much of an impact on me, I'm not easily offended. But using that word isn't about me it is about how its use makes other people feel. It took a friend and a ####ty situation to make that a lot more clear to me.

This thread has similarly opened my eyes to certain words and jokes and the way they are used. It really gives a lot to think about. Even early today I got an email from my hockey team saying we were going to have a girl play for us (Team Canada Gold medal winning girl at that) and my first thought was to make a wise crack about line mates or seats on the bench. It was dumb and immature and I am glad I didn't send it. This thread and a number of the posts in it are thanks to that.

[ernie]

This may or may not cause controversy. I doubt everybody will agree with my comments....and I'm OK with that.

I don't think looking at pictures of pretty women (or men...whatever floats your boat) is necessarily akin to objectification. I think we have to realize that humans are indeed sexual beings and stop as a society trying to avoid recognizing that aspect of us. Part of being a sexual being is, like it or not, appreciating what the person in the movie, in the ad, in the magazine, or in the mall looks like. It's not shameful to be attracted to physical beauty and wanting to see such beauty (whatever you personally believe is physical beauty...and everyone is different).

I don't believe that is necessarily objectification. Objectification has another component and that lies in the intent of the looking, what one thinks and how one ends up treating that person. If I look at a what I think is a nice looking woman I am not discounting that woman is a human being with unique talents and unique personality (heck as far as I know from interviews etc that personality and what not is exactly what make someone like JLaw extremely attractive to me). I'm also not going to leer and oggle for an extended period of time. One knows in an instant if someone catches your eye...leave it at that. Appreciate it and if one wants to look some more, so to speak, strike up a conversation and develop a relationship.

When it comes to the thread in question, the very large majority of pictures in that thread were made for the expressed purpose of impressing the viewer with those physical looks. Now of course it's hard to know if someone was forced into such a picture but by and large I believe we can take it on face value that for the large majority they are willing participants in the picture taking process and know this. Sharing such pictures and enjoying them for what they are is to me not a problem. I also understand that others feel differently and I respect that view.

I get the comments on some of the pictures very much cross the line into objectification territory and can make people uncomfortable. I may even be guilty of some of those given the length of time the thread has been around. If so I certainly apologize. I also agree that it is not a thread that is necessary on the site and feel free to shut it down (I just don't think the idea in and of itself is truly objectifying).

and to stray somewhat beyond the topic...I also believe there is a straight violation of privacy if there are leaked private photos in such a thread (no idea if that is the case as I haven't actually been in the thread for a long time). As tempting as it is to peruse the fappening I ain't doing it. Yeah perhaps it's good practice to lock the front door but the fact remains the burglar is the one that gets all the blame and the victim gets none. The victims did nothing wrong. That is one thing I think we can all agree on.

[Shnabdabber]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

I get the criticizing angle, or disagreeing which can create constructive conversation, what I am asking about is outright negative language that religious groups may find offensive that contributes nothing to the dialogue?

Anybody?

[jayswin]

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. What's the context of this?

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by ernie

I don't think looking at pictures of pretty women (or men...whatever floats your boat) is necessarily akin to objectification. I think we have to realize that humans are indeed sexual beings and stop as a society trying to avoid recognizing that aspect of us. Part of being a sexual being is, like it or not, appreciating what the person in the movie, in the ad, in the magazine, or in the mall looks like. It's not shameful to be attracted to physical beauty and wanting to see such beauty (whatever you personally believe is physical beauty...and everyone is different).

I don't believe that is necessarily objectification. Objectification has another component and that lies in the intent of the looking, what one thinks and how one ends up treating that person. If I look at a what I think is a nice looking woman I am not discounting that woman is a human being with unique talents and unique personality (heck as far as I know from interviews etc that personality and what not is exactly what make someone like JLaw extremely attractive to me).

I agree completely, but that's only half of the story. I think the comparison that was made early in this thread between the YLYL thread and the What Are You Listening To? thread was completely valid from an intent perspective.

From the viewer's/listener's point of view, appreciating or even critiquing a model's physical attractiveness is no worse than doing the same with a musician's musical ability (which is why it's important to limit the thread to photos of people who choose to release them to the world for consumption - leaked photos are more like secretly recording me singing in the shower then saying I suck, which, while true, would be unfair).

Where the comparison breaks down is when it's viewed from the perspective of others. While my lack of musical talent might lead to me having a slightly worse time at karaoke once a month, our female posters seem to believe that they're constantly having their worth evaluated based on their attractiveness. I certainly am not constantly judging women based on how they look, but I'll take their word for it that the perception is very real.

When I started reading this thread, I was more focused on the fact that I don't have any bad intent when I appreciate beautiful women, and I was probably a little defensive about the suggestion that doing so was in some way misoginistic. My thought was, if women perceive it to be something that's it's not, that's not my problem. But then I started thinking about how wrong the "Redskins" supporters are to focus only on intent, and it made me realize that I'm probably just as wrong here.

I still maintain that there's nothing wrong with enjoying the sight of attractive women and even with discussing them with your buddies just like you'd do with musicians, but if the thread makes a significant group of our posters feel less welcome, that should outweight whatever innocent intent the people in that thread have.

[Eastern Girl]

There is nothing wrong with appreciating a beautiful woman, but can we break down what that means? You guys make it seem like you are sitting around, sipping Chardonnay while wearing monocles and waxing poetic.

This appreciation you speak of does not typically come in the form of "that is a beautiful woman." It is something more akin to "I would destroy her," "I would wreck/hit/tap that," or the ever popular, "I didn't even notice she had a face."

That's how you typically appreciate beauty? "What a beautiful painting. I want to destroy that."

Think about that imagery. Think about the implications of it, of conquering something, owning it or ruining it so it was only ever yours to enjoy. Why are most of the ways a man can appreciate a woman's beauty associated with violent or dominant imagery? Really think about it.

At the end of the day, I suppose that is what we are really asking for here. If the YLYL thread stays and this thread discussing sexism falls off the front page, we would ask that you just think about the way you speak about women, both on the board and off it.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

There is nothing wrong with appreciating a beautiful woman, but can we break down what that means? You guys make it seem like you are sitting around, sipping Chardonnay while wearing monocles and waxing poetic.

This appreciation you speak of does not typically come in the form of "that is a beautiful woman." It is something more akin to "I would destroy her," "I would wreck/hit/tap that," or the ever popular, "I didn't even notice she had a face."

That's how you typically appreciate beauty? "What a beautiful painting. I want to destroy that."

That's completely unfair to the people you're responding to and the vast majority of members who view the YLYL thread.
The type of comments you're mentioning, come from a very, very small portion of users and have been condemned by almost everyone in this thread.