YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

if it is agreed that the thread is removed, would the list of questionable GIFs/pictures involving women in the PGTs/any other thread also be made against the rules?

Edited a bit for curiousity

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by photon

Exactly, the language developed in an environment that marginalized women and we use it in ways that continue to do so even if that's not our intent or we would strongly disagree with any suggestion that women shouldn't be equal.

In the car thread a model of car was described as it's too bad that it's seen as a car for women. The implicit suggestion that since women want the car that harms the reputation of the car isn't intended I'm sure, but it's there.

That whole "throw like a girl" commercial I posted a while back is a powerful message.

Each of those things alone aren't a big deal, but when its pervasive and unrelenting it's a problem.

My wife's a visible minority so she gets it from two directions.

It's the same as people saying "that's gay, you're gay" to mean something or someone is bad.

And a lot of the "aggression" in this thread from myself and other women and the men who are voicing our side of the argument is that sexism is pervasive. It surrounds us constantly, and it's exactly like you said: there are so many ways it creeps into every day life that even someone who sees himself as very mature and adult and fully in favor of equality will say and do things that are sexist without even realizing it, without any intent whatsoever.

We see the magazines, we see the billboards, we see the ads on TV. We're women, thus our bodies are commodities for consumptions, our bodies are used to sell products and entertainment. When hackers steal and leak personal, naked photos--how often are they men's bodies? When paparazzi snag an upskirt pic of a celebrity, how often is it men? How often do you hear of congressmen trying to prevent men's access to condoms or viagra?

Every single day I go to work and deal with a 67 year old man, a man who is below the totem pole from me. I am the salon manager, he's a part time stylist. He treats me like crap because I'm a woman. I'm a woman and thus I know nothing, and thus he refuses to listen to me, condescends to me about things I am more educated about. This is every single day of my life, and this is daily life for a whole lot of women.

So we come to CP wanting to enjoy ourselves and then every single day we open the off-topic forum and the YLYL thread is right there at the top, because it always is, and there are little sexist remarks made 'that car is for women,' 'they probably didn't want women clients because women complain more,' 'she was just looking to bust balls,' etc, etc. Even if there's no intent, the latent sexism is there, below the surface, and over time, it builds up and then a thread like this happens, and we women end up venting those pent up frustrations.

[woob]

From interpreting the vibe of this thread and what's been discussed, it feels to me like even if the YLYL thread goes the way of the dodo bird, participants are actually looking for more a change across the entire Forum, from FoI to the Off Topic Forum.

Yes, ditching the YLYL thread is an excellent step in that direction, but I think the discussion now needs to focus on what are we striving for? If we're striving to be more inclusionary (I don't think that's a word, but I'm going with it) of all walks of life, be it women, atheists, Catholics, Oilers fans (never!!), then how do we go about changing the group-think of the board to move in that direction?

On the surface, the easy answer is mods, but I don't think mods want to deal with trying to determine what's ok/what's not when it comes to a lot of these items that often have significant grey areas. So is the best option to maybe have a short blurb at the top of the forum stating what the forums overall mission statement is (to be accepting, non-sexist, etc) and then maybe link to the general policies guidelines of the forum? Thus placing the onus on the user base to self police and to adopt a posting mantra that jives with the mission statement? Yes, you might find some of that in the FAQ but something more visible may be key.

Just speaking my mind and throwing some thoughts out.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

And a lot of the "aggression" in this thread from myself and other women and the men who are voicing our side of the argument is that sexism is pervasive. It surrounds us constantly, and it's exactly like you said: there are so many ways it creeps into every day life that even someone who sees himself as very mature and adult and fully in favor of equality will say and do things that are sexist without even realizing it, without any intent whatsoever.

We see the magazines, we see the billboards, we see the ads on TV. We're women, thus our bodies are commodities for consumptions, our bodies are used to sell products and entertainment. When hackers steal and leak personal, naked photos--how often are they men's bodies? When paparazzi snag an upskirt pic of a celebrity, how often is it men? How often do you hear of congressmen trying to prevent men's access to condoms or viagra?

Every single day I go to work and deal with a 67 year old man, a man who is below the totem pole from me. I am the salon manager, he's a part time stylist. He treats me like crap because I'm a woman. I'm a woman and thus I know nothing, and thus he refuses to listen to me, condescends to me about things I am more educated about. This is every single day of my life, and this is daily life for a whole lot of women.

So we come to CP wanting to enjoy ourselves and then every single day we open the off-topic forum and the YLYL thread is right there at the top, because it always is, and there are little sexist remarks made 'that car is for women,' 'they probably didn't want women clients because women complain more,' 'she was just looking to bust balls,' etc, etc. Even if there's no intent, the latent sexism is there, below the surface, and over time, it builds up and then a thread like this happens, and we women end up venting those pent up frustrations.

So does this end the discussion?

I think it does.

Of course, if I was a female on CP, I would PM the other females I knew on here and tell them to Jihad the thread with super hot male pictures.....but that is just me.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by woob

From interpreting the vibe of this thread and what's been discussed, it feels to me like even if the YLYL thread goes the way of the dodo bird, participants are actually looking for more a change across the entire Forum, from FoI to the Off Topic Forum.

Yes, ditching the YLYL thread is an excellent step in that direction, but I think the discussion now needs to focus on what are we striving for? If we're striving to be more inclusionary (I don't think that's a word, but I'm going with it) of all walks of life, be it women, atheists, Catholics, Oilers fans (never!!), then how do we go about changing the group-think of the board to move in that direction?

On the surface, the easy answer is mods, but I don't think mods want to deal with trying to determine what's ok/what's not when it comes to a lot of these items that often have significant grey areas. So is the best option to maybe have a short blurb at the top of the forum stating what the forums overall mission statement is (to be accepting, non-sexist, etc) and then maybe link to the general policies guidelines of the forum? Thus placing the onus on the user base to self police and to adopt a posting mantra that jives with the mission statement? Yes, you might find some of that in the FAQ but something more visible may be key.

Just speaking my mind and throwing some thoughts out.

I think it basically comes down to what someone (I forget whom, I'm sorry!) said a couple of pages back:

Respect. Just think twice about what you're saying/posting. Don't be a d-bag, try to take other people's feelings into consideration.

[photon]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

if it is agreed that the thread is removed, would the list of questionable GIFs involving women in the PGTs also be made against the rules?

I'm pretty sure we'd already made that request a few times and were deleting such, I know I removed some myself.

As for other places on the forum and other pictures, I guess that'll depend on how we proceed. Just removing the YLYL thread by itself isn't going to accomplish anything so it would likely happen in the context of a specific policy, in which case the images would have to fit within that.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I think it basically comes down to what someone (I forget whom, I'm sorry!) said a couple of pages back:

Respect. Just think twice about what you're saying/posting. Don't be a d-bag, try to take other people's feelings into consideration.

Respecting other people on the internet...that should be a novel experiment.

At least here we're pretty decent about it.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by woob

From interpreting the vibe of this thread and what's been discussed, it feels to me like even if the YLYL thread goes the way of the dodo bird, participants are actually looking for more a change across the entire Forum, from FoI to the Off Topic Forum.

Yes, ditching the YLYL thread is an excellent step in that direction, but I think the discussion now needs to focus on what are we striving for? If we're striving to be more inclusionary (I don't think that's a word, but I'm going with it) of all walks of life, be it women, atheists, Catholics, Oilers fans (never!!), then how do we go about changing the group-think of the board to move in that direction?

On the surface, the easy answer is mods, but I don't think mods want to deal with trying to determine what's ok/what's not when it comes to a lot of these items that often have significant grey areas. So is the best option to maybe have a short blurb at the top of the forum stating what the forums overall mission statement is (to be accepting, non-sexist, etc) and then maybe link to the general policies guidelines of the forum? Thus placing the onus on the user base to self police and to adopt a posting mantra that jives with the mission statement? Yes, you might find some of that in the FAQ but something more visible may be key.

Just speaking my mind and throwing some thoughts out.

if it's sweeping change we're after, i'd like to put in a vote to remove the "jihad" metaphor that is used in relation to asking for people to vote in a poll on CP. I'm not even muslim or anything, but find the way it is used on CP in this way pretty questionable!

[woob]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I think it basically comes down to what someone (I forget whom, I'm sorry!) said a couple of pages back:

Respect. Just think twice about what you're saying/posting. Don't be a d-bag, try to take other people's feelings into consideration.

That's great and all, but a lot of people don't have that common sense. I'm talking about something that is user facing, likely at the top of the forums or what not, which states that we are a community free of racism, sexism, harassment (except Canucks fans) etc. Something so that when people load up the forum, that message is there as a bit of a reminder and a notice to new people on what we're about.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

It's also disappointing to see the men arguing in favour of curbing the sexism throughout the board being dismissed as simply trying to be our white knights.

Excellent post overall, but I wanted to specifically thank you for this part. For anyone unaware, "white knight" is a derogatory term used on internet discussion boards to describe men who side with the female posters in topics about sexism/feminism/etc. Thankfully I haven't seen it used much on CP, but it has come up here and there. The idea by those who label others as "white knights" is that the only reason a man would speak out against sexism is because he is trying to impress women so they'll want to sleep with him. Just think about how someone could arrive at that conclusion for a moment: there are people who have such unhealthy attitudes towards women that they cannot possibly fathom why a man would take a principled stand against sexism unless it was all just a ploy to get laid. It's disgusting.

[maverickstruth]

Out of curiosity, and since the discussion has turned to the forum's rules and whatnot, I went and actually read the forum rules (I know, right?!?). Here's how they currently read, for reference sake:

2. Thou shalt keep thy posts rated PG. That means no posts or links to pr0n, explicit nudity, disturbing medical photos, gore, death, or any such thing. If you think it would be a problem viewing it at work or school, don't post it.
* This also includes excessive use of profanity or implied profanity. We mean it, if you feel the need to swear, just yell it out loud a dozen times while not typing it, it'll make you feel better.
* Exceptions may be made for tasteful pictures of men / women in threads along those topics, but the line should still be drawn before full nudity.

(As a note, vote Jihads are also technically against the rules, though not because of the name -- rather, because they defeat the purpose of having polls.)

[photon]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Respect. Just think twice about what you're saying/posting. Don't be a d-bag, try to take other people's feelings into consideration.

It can still be hard!

I think I've made my thoughts clear, but just do a search of all the stuff I've posted in the the YLYL thread. I think my pictures tended towards pretty vs overtly sexual, and more clothing (in general), most include faces (rather than focusing on a single feature) but still in hindsight or in the context of this thread I'm not sure they aren't objectification.

[photon]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

if it's sweeping change we're after, i'd like to put in a vote to remove the "jihad" metaphor that is used in relation to asking for people to vote in a poll on CP. I'm not even muslim or anything, but find the way it is used on CP in this way pretty questionable!

Is it? There isn't any implied derogatory meaning, jihad just means struggle.

Though I guess some people think of jihad as Islam fighting against non-Islamics, I never really thought of it that way when it's used in threads.

But even if you put in a military connotation, is it negative against Islam, or just an appropriation of the word?

[MissTeeks]

Just throwing this in here, this is what I see whenever the YLYL thread shows up on Tapatalk.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by photon

But even if you put in a military connotation, is it negative against Islam, or just an appropriation of the word?

Issues surrounding cultural appropriation could easily be another thread on its own.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by photon

Is it? There isn't any implied derogatory meaning, jihad just means struggle.

Though I guess some people think of jihad as Islam fighting against non-Islamics, I never really thought of it that way when it's used in threads.

But even if you put in a military connotation, is it negative against Islam, or just an appropriation of the word?

Jihad:
1.a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2.any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.

While most non-Muslim folks use it in it's second definition, few actually know that and mean it more in it's first, as the word came to use from it's Muslim relation and tends to conjure images of the typical north american image of a Muslim (that is to say, a person in a turban) running around waving a sword, attacking something in the name of religion. From what I've been told (as I am not a Muslim), it's pretty offensive, just not in North America, as it's currently used.

[bubbsy]

thanx whitetiger was going to post something similar.

it would also be pretty rude to abuse this word in the way it is done on CP in front of a person who's lost anyone or been affected by an incident termed under the realm of "Jihad".

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

Out of curiosity, and since the discussion has turned to the forum's rules and whatnot, I went and actually read the forum rules (I know, right?!?). Here's how they currently read, for reference sake:

(As a note, vote Jihads are also technically against the rules, though not because of the name -- rather, because they defeat the purpose of having polls.)

So what the group of "Do away with it" folks basically want then, is for the quasi-exception for the YLYL thread to be removed, and heavier modding of pictures and verbiage through CP in general, correct?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

So what the group of "Do away with it" folks basically want then, is for the quasi-exception for the YLYL thread to be removed, and heavier modding of pictures and verbiage through CP in general, correct?

Well what we'd actually like is for posters to be able to reflect and recognize the language and attitudes they're bringing to the boards, and hopefully adjust in such a way that makes the board more welcoming to our female members. And maybe to exercise a bit more empathy to said members.

[Red Potato Standing By]

i'd say get rid of it, there is lots of places to look at that stuff on the web if you feel the need to. and hmm maybe make a female a Mod. they would have a better idea of what is offensive...(if there is already a female mod disregard)