Windows 7: More disapointing as the days go on

[Jedi Ninja]

Does anyone know where I can get Apple decals? I can't actually afford a Mac, but I figure if I cover over the logo on my Nexxtech laptop with an Apple logo, I'll pick up more chicks at Starbucks.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Linux has come a long way but its not quite there yet in terms of being a desktop system. Until the ease of install, setup and use is good enough so that it appeals to the absolute lowest common denominator its destined to be used pretty much exclusive by hobbyists and programmers.

My mom runs the latest version of Ubuntu. I installed it for her, but I only used default settings so I basically just hit enter over and over. She called me a week afterwards about why her Youtube wouldn't work, I told her to google "installing flash on Ubuntu" and explained how to open the terminal. She had no problems.

You can't get much lower on the computer/tech skill ladder than my mom. She called me one day because her usb flash drive wouldn't work, and 30 mins of pulling my hair out later I find out it is because she has stuck it into the RJ-45 slot instead of the USB slot.

As long as people have your attitude, you are right, Linux is not an option. The reality is though, it actually is.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Rathji

My mom runs the latest version of Ubuntu. I installed it for her, but I only used default settings so I basically just hit enter over and over. She called me a week afterwards about why her Youtube wouldn't work, I told her to google "installing flash on Ubuntu" and explained how to open the terminal. She had no problems.

You can't get much lower on the computer/tech skill ladder than my mom. She called me one day because her usb flash drive wouldn't work, and 30 mins of pulling my hair out later I find out it is because she has stuck it into the RJ-45 slot instead of the USB slot.

As long as people have your attitude, you are right, Linux is not an option. The reality is though, it actually is.

I don't think it's fair to say that Linux is on par with Windows or Mac OS with regards to general population usability.

If my father wants to convert movies from one format to another, he can drive to Future Shop, buy a CD and (after a quick install process) he'll be converting away. I'm not so sure he'd be able to get around the whole repository/tar ball/install script/codec configuration nightmare he'd have to go through if he was running Linux.

It has come a long way from what it used to be, that's for sure; I just don't think it's quite there for the general population just yet.

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Does anyone know where I can get Apple decals? I can't actually afford a Mac, but I figure if I cover over the logo on my Nexxtech laptop with an Apple logo, I'll pick up more chicks at Starbucks.

Ha, I'm going to put my Apple sticker (from my iPod) over my dell logo and see what happens.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I don't think it's fair to say that Linux is on par with Windows or Mac OS with regards to general population usability.

If my father wants to convert movies from one format to another, he can drive to Future Shop, buy a CD and (after a quick install process) he'll be converting away. I'm not so sure he'd be able to get around the whole repository/tar ball/install script/codec configuration nightmare he'd have to go through if he was running Linux.

It has come a long way from what it used to be, that's for sure; I just don't think it's quite there for the general population just yet.

I am considering an average computer user. Surf the net, email, use a spreadsheet or create a word document type people. All most people want to with a video file is watch it, not convert it from h.264 to mpeg.

All you really need to understand how to install things with Ubuntu is that you can click on Add/Remove Programs in your application menu, and follow the prompts. People are trained that you need to buy software on a disc and that it is totally separate thing from your OS, but that doesn't mean that most people are incapable of selecting the software they want from a list built into the OS and having it automatically install.

Sure it is not 100% equivalent to a Mac or PC, and if that is what you require before you consider something a viable alternative, then of course you will never see any Linux distro as one. As a user of both Macs and PCs, I would think you would see the value in 2 systems being different, rather than simply being direct clones of each other.

The one major chink in any Linux distros armor at this point in time is the availability of wireless drivers. The configuration required to get the ndis wrapper working is something that means that the average user would have no desire to use Linux on a laptop, and I can understand that.

Keep in mind here, I am talking about a second tier OS though, a viable alternative for some users, not something that could instantly replace Windows/OSX as the major OS of choice.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am considering an average computer user. Surf the net, email, use a spreadsheet or create a word document type people. All most people want to with a video file is watch it, not convert it from h.264 to mpeg.

All you really need to understand how to install things with Ubuntu is that you can click on Add/Remove Programs in your application menu, and follow the prompts. People are trained that you need to buy software on a disc and that it is totally separate thing from your OS, but that doesn't mean that most people are incapable of selecting the software they want from a list built into the OS and having it automatically install.

Sure it is not 100% equivalent to a Mac or PC, and if that is what you require before you consider something a viable alternative, then of course you will never see any Linux distro as one. As a user of both Macs and PCs, I would think you would see the value in 2 systems being different, rather than simply being direct clones of each other.

The one major chink in any Linux distros armor at this point in time is the availability of wireless drivers. The configuration required to get the ndis wrapper working is something that means that the average user would have no desire to use Linux on a laptop, and I can understand that.

Keep in mind here, I am talking about a second tier OS though, a viable alternative for some users, not something that could instantly replace Windows/OSX as the major OS of choice.

Ah, I see what you're getting at now. That's interesting. I wonder if I should try that out on my dad...

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm not so sure he'd be able to get around the whole repository/tar ball/install script/codec configuration nightmare he'd have to go through if he was running Linux.

Nightmare? We are talking Ubuntu here. I think its your turn at spreading old myths

As someone who uses all three major O/Ses daily, I find the repository on Ubuntu to be a huge step up over anything on Mac or Windows. You just click off the software you want on your machine, and all the install is done in the background without any further action required on your part. Want to uninstall? Just uncheck it.

And even better updates are downloaded as soon as they're available, and I have mine set to auto-install so all my software is always automatically update with no interaction required from me at all. None of those annoying "There's a new version of growl available click here to install" or "Windows would like to update please click here". And no reboots required either.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Does anyone know where I can get Apple decals? I can't actually afford a Mac, but I figure if I cover over the logo on my Nexxtech laptop with an Apple logo, I'll pick up more chicks at Starbucks.

Buy the cheapes Ipod you can, they come with Mac Stickers.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Buy the cheapes Ipod you can, they come with Mac Stickers.

They're just the small ones though.

I have a bunch of the big ones. Make me an offer.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Rathji

My mom runs the latest version of Ubuntu. I installed it for her, but I only used default settings so I basically just hit enter over and over. She called me a week afterwards about why her Youtube wouldn't work, I told her to google "installing flash on Ubuntu" and explained how to open the terminal. She had no problems.

You can't get much lower on the computer/tech skill ladder than my mom. She called me one day because her usb flash drive wouldn't work, and 30 mins of pulling my hair out later I find out it is because she has stuck it into the RJ-45 slot instead of the USB slot.

As long as people have your attitude, you are right, Linux is not an option. The reality is though, it actually is.

Well, even if someone found out about it on their own, the install/setup would probably be enough to scare the average user off - even if in reality it doesn't have to be all that complicated. Certain wireless and print drivers can be a massive pain in Linux still and that's enough to be a deal breaker for a lot of people.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, is there's no company you can point to and say "They're taking care of the development and will support you if you run into any trouble" in the same way you can with Windows/OSX. Sure you could probably make an argument for a company like Canonical to take on that type of role for the Ubuntu distro but its really not the same when you come right down to it. If nothing else, they simply don't have the name recognition and trust that comes with it of Microsoft or Apple. This frightens a lot of people and scares off anyone that doesn't consider using google to try to solve their own tech issues.


If Dell, for example, were to really get behind it and start pushing machines pre-installed and pre-configured with Linux and were to provide a decent level of consumer support with it to help people migrating to a new OS... it might get to the point of being a viable alternative in a few years.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Barnes

They're just the small ones though.

I have a bunch of the big ones. Make me an offer.

I have a bunch of stickers that look nothing like the Apple decals, and they're made of really cheap paper with some kind of weird envelope glue on them.

But hey, a sticker is a sticker, and I'm willing to sell them at half of what Barnes wants for his overpriced Apple decals.

PM me for more infos!

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

Nightmare? We are talking Ubuntu here. I think its your turn at spreading old myths

As someone who uses all three major O/Ses daily, I find the repository on Ubuntu to be a huge step up over anything on Mac or Windows. You just click off the software you want on your machine, and all the install is done in the background without any further action required on your part. Want to uninstall? Just uncheck it.

And even better updates are downloaded as soon as they're available, and I have mine set to auto-install so all my software is always automatically update with no interaction required from me at all. None of those annoying "There's a new version of growl available click here to install" or "Windows would like to update please click here". And no reboots required either.

Fair enough. It sounds like Ubuntu's come a long way. I ran a Linux box at the office last year, but I think it was Debian something or other. It certainly wasn't anything like what you're describing.

(I'm not doubting you at all, in fact I've heard lots of good things about Ubuntu - I'd just forgotten about that distro until Rathji mentioned it in his second post.)

Edit: openSUSE was what I used, not Debian.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

If Dell, for example, were to really get behind it and start pushing machines pre-installed and pre-configured with Linux and were to provide a decent level of consumer support with it to help people migrating to a new OS... it might get to the point of being a viable alternative in a few years.

Not intended to be argumentative, but I seem to recall Dell offering Linux at one time...

Edit: Looks like they still are http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/home/L...a=5263~0~52559.
Also, a quick search showed a bunch of office desktops with Ubuntu too, but I can't link them the same way.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Not intended to be argumentative, but I see to recall Dell offering Linux at one time...

Yup they did. Ubuntu was their distro of choice in fact, hence why I mentioned them specifically. In my opinion though, it was poorly rolled out if their intention was to advertise Linux as a mainstream alternative. They seemed to want to hide the option rather than try to push it as a viable OS for their consumer machines and I've heard that the support they offered for it was completely terrible.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

As someone who uses all three major O/Ses daily, I find the repository on Ubuntu to be a huge step up over anything on Mac or Windows. You just click off the software you want on your machine, and all the install is done in the background without any further action required on your part. Want to uninstall? Just uncheck it.

Mac users have the option of grabbing Fink or MacPorts, which gives them access to the same crappy Linux software repositories. yay!

(I kid, I kid...kinda...the apps aren't as polished but free is very compelling to be sure)

[octothorp]

I seem to recall that Apple was in very dire financial straights last time there were other companies making computers that you could run the Mac OS (pre OS X) on. I can't recall the names of the companies, but there were about three of them. Some even had options where you could buy a decent system that came with Windows, Mac OS, and Linux all OEM installed. Maybe even an option for BeOS as well. I miss BeOS.

Anyway, Apple has done far better for themselves since they've locked up the hardware again. It's annoying at times as a customer, but it's a sound business strategy.

[Barnes]

Official Mac Clones:

By 1995, Apple Macintosh computers accounted for about 7% of the worldwide desktop computer market. Apple executives decided to launch an official clone program in order to expand Macintosh market penetration. Apple's clone program entailed the licensing of the Macintosh ROMs and system software to other manufacturers, each of which agreed to pay a flat fee for a license, and a royalty for each clone computer they sold. This generated quick revenues for Apple during a time of financial crisis. From early 1995 through mid-1997, it was possible to buy PowerPC-based clone computers running Mac OS, most notably from Power Computing. Other licensees were Motorola, Radius, APS Technologies, DayStar Digital, UMAX, MaxxBoxx, and Tatung. In terms of exterior styling, Mac clones often more closely resembled generic PCs than their Macintosh counterparts.[8][citation needed]
[edit] Jobs ends the official program

Soon after Steve Jobs returned to Apple, he backed out of recently renegotiated licensing deals with OS licensees that Apple executives complained were still financially unfavorable [9]. Because the clonemakers' licenses were valid only for Apple's System 7 operating system, Apple's release of Mac OS 8 left the clone manufacturers without the ability to ship a current Mac OS version and effectively ended the cloning program.[10] Apple bought Power Computing's Mac clone business for $100 million, ending the Clone era.[11]
Jobs publicly stated[citation needed] that the program was ill-conceived and had been a result of "institutional guilt," meaning that for years, there had been a widely held belief at Apple that had the company aggressively pursued a legal cloning program early in the history of the Macintosh, consumers might have turned to low-priced Macintosh clones rather than low-priced IBM/PC-compatible computers. Had it pursued a clone program in the 1980s, in this view, Apple might have ended up in the position currently occupied by Microsoft-an extremely powerful company with high profit margins and a wide base of consumers perpetually dependent on its system software products. Jobs claimed it was now too late for this to happen, that the Mac clone program was doomed to failure from the start, and since Apple made money primarily by selling computer hardware, it ought not engage in a licensing program that would reduce its hardware sales.

From Wikipedia.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Mac users have the option of grabbing Fink or MacPorts, which gives them access to the same crappy Linux software repositories. yay!

(I kid, I kid...kinda...the apps aren't as polished but free is very compelling to be sure)

Access to the repositories, yes, but what I was talking about was the package manager (called Synaptic on Ubuntu). AFAIK, there are no Windows or Mac equivalents.

The apps, well that's another debate entirely. Yes, GUIs are usually pretty minimalist, but for the most part they're solid and high-performance. And the best part, like you say, is that they're free.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

Access to the repositories, yes, but what I was talking about was the package manager (called Synaptic on Ubuntu). AFAIK, there are no Windows or Mac equivalents.

The apps, well that's another debate entirely. Yes, GUIs are usually pretty minimalist, but for the most part they're solid and high-performance. And the best part, like you say, is that they're free.

The Mac counterparts use the same underlying Debian apt engine to manage dependencies, its the same thing. The only difference is that the packages have been recompiled to work with OS X's underlying POSIX API rather than the one provided with Linux.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by FanIn08

I have a bunch of stickers that look nothing like the Apple decals but actually have a picture of a penguin on them, and they're made of really cheap paper with some kind of weird envelope glue on them that may be toxic because it makes me dizzy when I lick them.

But hey, a sticker is a sticker, and I'm willing to sell them at half of what Barnes wants for his overpriced Apple decals.

PM me for more infos!

Wow, those sound like really crappy stickers, but I have a hard time turning down a good deal, so sold!

While we're at it, do you have any BluRay decals that I can paste over the logo on my HD-DVD player?