[Signing] Flames sign Deryk Engelland (3yrs, $2.9M AAV)

[gvitaly]

For all the signing supporters, a few questions- Do you see Engelland as a player a team will want to trade for next summer? Would they even consider picking him off waivers if he ended up on them?

The reason I am asking is because we have 6 (5+brodie RFA) NHL defenseman signed for the next 2 seasons. If we acquire a defenseman to upgrade our defense or simply a prospect makes it to the NHL, which one of those defenseman becomes the odd man out? and how easy would it be to send that person to a different team?

I trust in the Flames management, and I am trying to justify this trade, but I just can't. Personally I am not even sure what makes him such a leader? his play on the ice sure didn't seem to suggest anything out of the ordinary.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

One can argue that merits of having a veteran mentoring the young dman on their roster, however, I am not sure why anyone thing Engelland is that guy?

I mean we're not signing some former elite dman that is entering his twilight years here...maybe I am being overly harsh here, but I am not sure what a journeyman NHL brings to the table in terms of mentoring?

Elite players are not better mentors than journeymen. They're not teaching the kids the finer points of elite NHL skills - that's what coaches are for. Mentors teach kids how to be a pro, a solid teammate, and how to do the little things that help you win. Journeymen, in fact, are typically better versed in those traits than elite players are because journeymen need them just to stick in the NHL.

Go back in Flames history. Who were the notable mentors and leaders? Guys like Risebrough, Peplinski, McCrimmon, Lowry, Boughner, Warrener, and Gelinas. None of them elite players.

This is one of the reasons I never understood the justification to keep aging stars as mentors. Aging stars are typically not great mentors.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by saXon

Spoiler for F-bomb in the title.

Spoiler!

This video is awesome! They loved Engl, I dig Bylsma in this too. I am liking this signing more and more, the amount hurts but when you got 6 guys bidding sometimes you gotta say the big number and move in especially if it means acquiring a need. This is Butler's replacement as far as I am concerned and I think it's better to have warrior as our 6th dman out there.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by 1_Flames_Fan

I feel like this an honest question. How is he worth 2.9 million/year for 3. Must have a crap load of intangibles.

I think even Treliving admitted that he's not worth it, but there were a number of reasons they were willing to pay it...

10 teams were reportedly interesting in acquiring him. It's safe to assume that most of those teams would give him a better chance to see playoff action, so the one thing the Flames could offer that the others couldn't was money.

He's a right-shooting d-man, which is a big hole on the roster. Wideman is the only other right-shooting D in the entire Flames organization, including draft picks. This is another reason they were willing to pay a premium to get him.

He was asking for a longer term, so they offered more money per year to get him to accept a shorter term.

The salary floor was somewhat of a concern, so they were willing to spend a little more to ensure they weren't going to be forced to make an even worse deal to take on money later.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Go back in Flames history. Who were the notable mentors and leaders? Guys like Risebrough, Peplinski, McCrimmon, Lowry, Boughner, Warrener, and Gelinas. None of them elite players.

Ahem?

LOl I jest, but yes I agree you need the guys who have had to work harder than some with excess levels of skill, to mentor your young talent to help further instill that extra level of commitment.

[photon]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

For all the signing supporters, a few questions- Do you see Engelland as a player a team will want to trade for next summer? Would they even consider picking him off waivers if he ended up on them?

He had his pick of 10 teams that were interested in him, no reason that should change substantially after one year (some teams will fill the need elsewhere, some won't, some new teams will get the need).

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The reason I am asking is because we have 6 (5+brodie RFA) NHL defenseman signed for the next 2 seasons. If we acquire a defenseman to upgrade our defense or simply a prospect makes it to the NHL, which one of those defenseman becomes the odd man out? and how easy would it be to send that person to a different team?

Well part of the reason for the signing is the team doesn't feel that there are prospects that will be NHL ready as quickly as there are for the forwards, so the likelihood of that scenario is low (at least that's what the GM said).

Which one becomes the odd man out depends a lot on the kind of incoming D. Looking at the insane prices D command year after year, I think moving a D to make room is easier than moving a forward. But even if not, worst case they'd bury one in the minors or eat some salary in a trade or buy him out.

But again given that he's a right hand shot and the interest in him today, unless he falls off the map ability wise there's probably going to be a market for him in a year's time.

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I trust in the Flames management, and I am trying to justify this trade, but I just can't. Personally I am not even sure what makes him such a leader? his play on the ice sure didn't seem to suggest anything out of the ordinary.

Well, it's not a trade, as GGG says the opportunity cost is zero. Engelland SMASH! is the justification (well that plus 12 minutes a night playing D, and making sure we get to and stay at the cap floor).

The GM, coach, and Hockey Ops President all talked to him, they talked to those around him. Leadership has little to do with being an extraordinary player.

[formulate]

I have a few thoughts/things to consider, prefaced by saying I have no strong feelings about this signing whatsoever:

-In a vacuum, is Deryk Engelland the hockey player worth 2.9 million for 3 years? No, and I don't think anyone will argue that he is.

-So, why did he receive this contract from the Flames? Why did he receive this contract at all? Rumors of 10 teams interested in his services was a bit of a surprise for me at first. It becomes more understandable when you consider the lack of competent right-shot (especially physical) defensemen on the market this year. It's not like Treliving reached out to Engelland's agent and said "We want this player, and here's almost 3 million to get it done". Competition drove up the price.

-So why not back out when the price got past the point of reasonable value? This will likely be debated the course of Deryk's stay in Calgary. Emphasis on size? Purely positional need? Locker room presence? Development time for younger players? Physical protection of other players? No other reasonable alternatives who would consider playing for the Flames who met some of the same criteria? I'm sure it was a combination of factors leading a (likely) group decision that it was an overpayment worth making.

-At the end of the day, this signing shouldn't hurt the team's long term plan. Will it come up as a discussion point for future contracts of other defensemen? Potentially, but other precedents have been set (Gio @4, Brodie at 2.1, Russell at 2.6) as well. If our management team believe an obvious overpayment of a physical, stand-up-for-his-teammates #6 defenseman/4th line winger helps protect our young players (whether physically, emotionally or from being rushed to the NHL) then so be it. Nothing worth getting upset over.

-I wish the best to Deryk Engelland as a Flame and hope he repays the organization for their generosity with a strong performance over the next few years!

[Buck Murdock]

Engellman will either be awesome, terrible, or somewhere in between.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Buck Murdock

Engellman will either be awesome, terrible, or somewhere in between.

He may not even be on the Flames

[GGG]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

For all the signing supporters, a few questions- Do you see Engelland as a player a team will want to trade for next summer? Would they even consider picking him off waivers if he ended up on them?

The reason I am asking is because we have 6 (5+brodie RFA) NHL defenseman signed for the next 2 seasons. If we acquire a defenseman to upgrade our defense or simply a prospect makes it to the NHL, which one of those defenseman becomes the odd man out? and how easy would it be to send that person to a different team?

I trust in the Flames management, and I am trying to justify this trade, but I just can't. Personally I am not even sure what makes him such a leader? his play on the ice sure didn't seem to suggest anything out of the ordinary.

I think if we retained half you could put him on most teams. You could put him in the minors and eat the cap hit. Either of those things are okay in the next 3 years.

Try to come up with a scenario that this move affects anything we do in the future. I cant, therefore the downside of this move nil. The upside might be close to that too but it cant be considered a bad deal.

[FlameZilla]

I can live with a defence corps of:

Giordano - Brodie
Smid - Wideman
Russell - Engelland

Bottom 2 pairings each have one mobile guy and one anchor. Significantly tougher now, replacing Butler with Engelland. Much better 6th D man than O'Brien. If Wideman has a healthy season he could be in line for a rebound in form. Plus, Gio & Brodie are going to hog all the minutes anyway.

I like it. We're not in cap hell, so who cares if this guy is earning the best pay of his life? The media can eat a bowl of dicks.

[Enoch Root]

For me, one of the biggest needs in the Flames lineup was a big physical Dman.

Too many liberties on our goalies, too easy to park in front. Nothing more annoying than watching Butler stand there beside a winger and never touch him while he takes 3 whacks at a rebound.

Feaster got SOB for that reason, but he wasn't up to the job.

So they hit free agency and went and got one. Wait! A FA signing was over-priced? OMG! When has that ever happened before?

When it's a $6 or 7 million dollar, or 5-6 year overpayment, that's going to become a problem. This is $2.9m for 3 years - who fricking cares?

No people, it will NOT affect the negotiations for Giordano or Brodie.

They got a guy they needed. They didn't have to give up anything for him. He was expensive - well that's the market.

I am quite happy with the signing. He and Hiller were just what was needed. Raymond, sure whatever.

No big crazy deals, filled a couple holes. Pretty good July 1 IMO

[FlamesAllTheWay]

As bad as SOB was for us he filled the role of the bruiser D man that this team sorely lacked. Engelland will do the same. Overpaid a bit but this team can afford to do it monetarily and also term as we're not going to be competitive for another couple of years at least.

I like that we're getting some tough guys like Bollig and Engelland who can protect the younger guys along with McGrattan and also skate a regular shift.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Starting to warm up to this deal.

Reminds me a bit of the Mr. Robert A. Boughner acquisition.

[heep223]

I hope that teams start fearing the Saddledome again. You may win but you know win or lose it's going to hurt real bad and if you let your guard down for a second watch out.


Sent from 6 feet under

[Jay Random]

Overpayment, yes. No argument from me on that.

But I'm going to be a weirdo and look at it from my 'good-team player/bad-team player' angle. Engelland looks to me like a classic case of a good-team player who is not a good player. The Flames were looking for guys to fill several roles:

1. Someone who can drop the gloves in case McGrattan is injured, suspended, or in the box
2. RH defenceman
3. Bottom-pairing physical defenceman who can clear the front of the net
4. Utility RW who can fill in for an injured player

They could have filled these roles with three or four different players, and probably paid $2.9m per year for the lot of them. But that would have taken up three or four roster spots. Engelland fills all four roles and only takes up one roster spot.

The fact that Engelland can play both D and RW is particularly useful. I think it's a smart idea for every team to have a player who can switch between D and wing, because you never know what will happen with injuries and penalties during a game. But there aren't many players who can do that. My guess is that Engelland was the only real RW/D hybrid on the market this year, and that helped to drive his price up.

One thing I've learned in other areas of life: It's better to overpay and get exactly what you want than to buy something you don't want for a bargain price. I'm OK with this signing.

[spetch]

Originally Posted by edn88

I have nothing really to add to this, other than Engelland was from my home town, and from all accounts is a good guy.

U actually admit to being from Edmonton????

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Elite players are not better mentors than journeymen. They're not teaching the kids the finer points of elite NHL skills - that's what coaches are for. Mentors teach kids how to be a pro, a solid teammate, and how to do the little things that help you win. Journeymen, in fact, are typically better versed in those traits than elite players are because journeymen need them just to stick in the NHL.

Go back in Flames history. Who were the notable mentors and leaders? Guys like Risebrough, Peplinski, McCrimmon, Lowry, Boughner, Warrener, and Gelinas. None of them elite players.

This is one of the reasons I never understood the justification to keep aging stars as mentors. Aging stars are typically not great mentors.

And you are comparing Engelland to those guys? While I don't disagree with the general premise, I don't see Engelland as being anywhere near those guys if you compare them in their primes...

[FlamesAddiction]

It's really not that bad of a deal. What's league average these days anyway... it has to be approaching this number. The term isn't backbreaking.

Engelland is a pretty brave player and this is going to be a really tough team to play against. I also noticed from some videos that he would line-up on the wing occasionally as well.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's really not that bad of a deal. What's league average these days anyway... it has to be approaching this number. The term isn't backbreaking.

Engelland is a pretty brave player and this is going to be a really tough team to play against. I also noticed from some videos that he would line-up on the wing occasionally as well.

The average deal today was 2.5, so you're right it's on par with most signings.