Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Torture

I referring to how religions teach good things regardless of corruption in religious organizations and extremists. Charity being one of those things that religion idealizes.

No matter your stance on religious organizations, it's hard to argue with any of these teachings, and other religions have similar ideals.

The Real Ten Commandments

Christopher Hitchens Ten...

George Carlins Ten...

~ net worth of the Catholic Church...unknown but speculated to be $40B+
~ net worth of the LDCs or Mormon Church...$25B-30B.+

[Cheese]

oops double post

[SeoulFire]

That editorial lacks anything that even remotely resembles a solid argument.

[mykalberta]

Who cares about atheists, I am sure they dont and I know I dont. People not believing in anything other than their own human existance isnt new, and it will continue and you know what, its fine for them to do so.

[Devils'Advocate]

BTW - here is the findings of our study that this editorial was based upon:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...90608a-eng.htm

It confirms that most of the money donated went predominantly to religious organizations and the biggest beneficiary of volunteer time was, again, religious organizations. So for the most part, religious people "care more" because they are required to tithe.

[mykalberta]

Has someone compared religious charity work to Green Peace/Aids/dude+dude charity.

That would give you the best comparison imo. There would be spillover on both sides but most likely within the margin of error.

[photon]

Originally Posted by peter12

In my own considerable experience, I'd have to say that the most charitable people tend to be religious.

Well considering that most people tend to be religious, that would be expected.

A better question would be what the ratios are within each group.

Plus as has been pointed out, it's not always comparing apples to apples.. most Christians I know give to their church to support their church's expenses which includes staff, building, etc to support the social infrastructure of their group, which I wouldn't consider charitable donations because it doesn't actually go to help anyone other than their own group. Some churches are better than others in actually getting the money the congregation gives out where it can do actual good.

Most non-religious people I know make a contentious effort to select organizations where the largest possible % of the money donated goes towards the actual cause rather than administration.

However our anecdotal experience of "most people I know" is pretty much meaningless.

[photon]

Add to that the factor that in many churches it is basically a requirement to tithe.. not necessarily that you will be kicked out of the church if you do not tithe, but your social status will be lower if it is know, the pastor will take you aside and tell you that you are disobeying God and that your relationship with God is being harmed because you aren't giving, that you can't receive the fullness of God's benefits without tithing, and you will even be restricted from being active in the church (i.e. you can't be a musician, sing, teach Sunday school, preach, teach, greet, etc) unless you are tithing.

So people will fell compelled (coerced?) to tithe even if it harms them.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

Add to that the factor that in many churches it is basically a requirement to tithe.. not necessarily that you will be kicked out of the church if you do not tithe, but your social status will be lower if it is know, the pastor will take you aside and tell you that you are disobeying God and that your relationship with God is being harmed because you aren't giving, that you can't receive the fullness of God's benefits without tithing, and you will even be restricted from being active in the church (i.e. you can't be a musician, sing, teach Sunday school, preach, teach, greet, etc) unless you are tithing.

So people will fell compelled (coerced?) to tithe even if it harms them.

That is not true. Tithing is preached from time to time, the traditional guideline has always been 10%, but people do not get singled out in every church organization for missing a tithe or not tithing, perhaps some of the crummy churches you've been to.. that's too bad especially if it resulted in putting you in a 'lower social class'.

[Doctordestiny]

Originally Posted by photon

Well considering that most people tend to be religious, that would be expected.

A better question would be what the ratios are within each group.

Plus as has been pointed out, it's not always comparing apples to apples.. most Christians I know give to their church to support their church's expenses which includes staff, building, etc to support the social infrastructure of their group, which I wouldn't consider charitable donations because it doesn't actually go to help anyone other than their own group. Some churches are better than others in actually getting the money the congregation gives out where it can do actual good.

Most non-religious people I know make a contentious effort to select organizations where the largest possible % of the money donated goes towards the actual cause rather than administration.

However our anecdotal experience of "most people I know" is pretty much meaningless.

Disagree 100% with the bolded part. I'd put the percentage of religious people at under 10%. Most people might be believers, but that doesn't make them religious.

[Doctordestiny]

Originally Posted by Finny61

That is not true. Tithing is preached from time to time, the traditional guideline has always been 10%, but people do not get singled out in every church organization for missing a tithe or not tithing, perhaps some of the crummy churches you've been to.. that's too bad.

Right. Almost no churches make tithing a requirement. The ones that do tend to be the cults. Mainstream evangelical protestant churches encourage tithing and sometimes preach it, but I've never seen any that make it a requirement, and I've been in different denominations' services.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by photon

Well considering that most people tend to be religious, that would be expected.

A better question would be what the ratios are within each group.

Plus as has been pointed out, it's not always comparing apples to apples.. most Christians I know give to their church to support their church's expenses which includes staff, building, etc to support the social infrastructure of their group, which I wouldn't consider charitable donations because it doesn't actually go to help anyone other than their own group. Some churches are better than others in actually getting the money the congregation gives out where it can do actual good.

Most non-religious people I know make a contentious effort to select organizations where the largest possible % of the money donated goes towards the actual cause rather than administration.

However our anecdotal experience of "most people I know" is pretty much meaningless.

Anecdotal evidence is the best way to become truly self-aware. Statistics only tell you what the staticians are looking for.

The social infrastructure of a Church is very important. I provides a building for community and charity. Most churches that I am familiar with are leaders in their community for food banks, clothing distribution etc...

Besides, administration is important. You want good people doing the best they can for a cause.

I think this idea that not tithing somehow reduces social status in a Churhc is completely false. I've only known tithing to be completely anonymous.

[Displaced Flames fan]

They could

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by T@T

How many examples would you like?
-Peasants' War
-Schmalkaldic War
-Thirty Years War
-Just about every war fought between England,Scotland and Ireland
-Jihad uses religion to kill

Hell even the Vatican supported the genocide of the Jews in WWII

Religion has been and is the single most murderous organizations the planet ever seen and also the most stupid, how people can believe in fairy tales written in the days when people beleived the earth was flat and the sun and stars revolved around us is beyond me.

This is the reason I don't believe, sorry but I'd rather believe in science and the rational, then a bunch of fairy tails.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by T@T

Hell even the Vatican supported the genocide of the Jews in WWII

Religion has been and is the single most murderous organizations the planet ever seen and also the most stupid, how people can believe in fairy tales written in the days when people beleived the earth was flat and the sun and stars revolved around us is beyond me.

Originally Posted by T@T

If you have an 18 year old kid who still believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or Jack and the Beanstock would you have a fanatical approach to try an set them straight so they don't look stupid?

These fairy tales are no different than Jesus walking on water,Mary was a virgin,Jonah living in a whale, the great flood...etc. All fairy tales. and every religion has them.

I really have no idea who you are, what kind of education you have or what your experience with certain faiths or religion in general is, but when you make statements like these you lose respect in your ability to argue against religion intelligently.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by sa226

I really have no idea who you are, what kind of education you have or what your experience with certain faiths or religion in general is, but when you make statements like these you lose respect in your ability to argue against religion intelligently.

Enlighten everyone with your words sa226. We'd love to have your wisdom.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

That is not true. Tithing is preached from time to time, the traditional guideline has always been 10%, but people do not get singled out in every church organization for missing a tithe or not tithing, perhaps some of the crummy churches you've been to.. that's too bad especially if it resulted in putting you in a 'lower social class'.

You contradicted yourself, you say it isn't true, but then you say "perhaps in some of the crummy churches you've been to", so which is it?

It is in fact true. If you actually read what I write...

but people do not get singled out in every church organization for missing a tithe or not tithing

No where did I say in every single church, and no where did I say any church actually singles you out, I said "if it is known". Just like any other social group there's things that result in higher social standing and things that result in lower social standing.

In every single evangelical church I've been to in 30+ years tithing was a requirement to be involved in ministry. If you weren't tithing the pastor would usually talk to you encouraging you to, and people that were having financial problems the first thing they were encouraged to do was tithe.

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

Disagree 100% with the bolded part. I'd put the percentage of religious people at under 10%. Most people might be believers, but that doesn't make them religious.

Semantics and irrelevant to the point. The point is that a much larger portion of people self identify as adhering to some kind of belief in God and participating in an organized religion to one degree or another, and unless peter12 is using the same difference in definition between religious and believers that you are and has taken that into account in his informal analysis I don't see how that's relevant.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by photon

Semantics and irrelevant to the point. The point is that a much larger portion of people self identify as adhering to some kind of belief in God and participating in an organized religion to one degree or another, and unless peter12 is using the same difference in definition between religious and believers that you are and has taken that into account in his informal analysis I don't see how that's relevant.

Classically, there is a huge difference between the religious and the theological.

Religion coming from the Latin meaning "to bind." Literally an expression of a political community. Theology coming from the Greek as that pertaining to the metaphysical world.

Nietzsche put it best when he lamented the death of God. We achieved great things with the reverance and transcedence that came from the belief in a higher power. I guess it all depends on what you consider great these days.

I'm a graduate student in Political Philosophy, I read mainly the Greeks and the French Romantics, so I think my definition of what is great differs from most people on this board.

[photon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Anecdotal evidence is the best way to become truly self-aware.

Anecdotal evidence is the best way to become filled with whatever you already believe.

As to what becoming self aware has to do with the actual validity of a given statement I have no idea.

Originally Posted by peter12

The social infrastructure of a Church is very important. I provides a building for community and charity. Most churches that I am familiar with are leaders in their community for food banks, clothing distribution etc...

And I can say most churches I am familiar with are selfish and only put a small portion of their money back into the community, since anecdotal evidence is the best way to become truly self aware. My anecdotal evidence can beat up your anecdotal evidence?

People do good things, and will set up organizations to help themselves do that on a larger scale.

Originally Posted by peter12

Besides, administration is important. You want good people doing the best they can for a cause.

Sure, but more isn't better.. if 95% of all money donated goes towards salaries and administration then there's something wrong.

Originally Posted by peter12

I think this idea that not tithing somehow reduces social status in a Churhc is completely false. I've only known tithing to be completely anonymous.

It's supposed to be anonymous, but in reality sometimes things slip out, people are asked to step down from positions of authority, people gossip, etc etc.

[photon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Classically, there is a huge difference between the religious and the theological.

Religion coming from the Latin meaning "to bind." Literally an expression of a political community. Theology coming from the Greek as that pertaining to the metaphysical world.

So when you say "I'd have to say that the most charitable people tend to be religious," what exactly do you mean then?

"In my own considerable experience, I'd have to say that the most charitable people tend to be people who participate in organized religion"?