The big fat Greek bailout

[kyuusei]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Anybody know what the situation is like in Greece. I hear travel is not recommended. Some rioting and stuff.

I haven't heard much about riots in the last week or two in Athens but I'd still stay away for a while.

Like someone said the islands should be okay to visit. Isn't there a site for travel advisories?

Too bad, Greece is usually a great vacation spot.

[Cliche]

http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/menu-eng.asp

A 24-hour general strike took place throughout Greece on May 20, 2010 and on May 5, 2010, resulting in the deaths of three people following violent protests in Athens. Subsequent to government budget cuts, the strikes and demonstrations have increased and are expected to continue to occur throughout May, possibly on short notice. Canadians are reminded to avoid large public gatherings and demonstrations as they can turn violent without notice. They should also follow the advice of local authorities at all times. Public transportation services and air transportation may be affected.

Interesting when you google the british fco and the US department of state.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

BERLIN (AFP) – The European Union could provide debt-ridden Greece with up to 25 billion euros (34 billion dollars) in aid, Monday's edition of the German magazine Der Spiegel says, citing suggestions from Germany's finance ministry.

The amount each country would contribute would be calculated according to its relative position in the European Central Bank, Der Spiegel explains.

Germany would therefore contribute nearly 20 percent of the potential aid package, the equivalent of up to five billion euros, which would be made up in part of loans and guarantees.
...
Greece is committed to reducing a public deficit of 12.7 percent of gross domestic product by four percentage points over the course of 2010. Countries in the single euro currency zone are subject to a three percent limit.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100220...20100220221715

I wonder how long till the German taxpayer says enough is enough.

Cheat, cook the books, live on debt, pay ridiculous salaries in public sector and then come hat in hand. Too funny.



Meanwhile, Spain's prime minister is trying to cover his own behind:

Zapatero, whose government is also facing pressure in the markets to bring down its budget deficit, gave Papandreou support and said deficits across Europe would come down once the recovery from recession was firmly established.

"Of course we are going to reduce the deficits.....we are not going to fall in the trap of the ideas of those who have created the financial crisis," he said.

"The large majority (of Greeks) has no responsibility for what has happened, and much less Papandreou's government..it deserves the trust of European institutions, of the markets and he has the trust of all the European governments," Zapatero added.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/...nancial_crisis


Yup, Greek voters hold no responsibility for electing politicians who promised them a free meal. Makes sense.


And while you would think THEY came to their senses and realized the party is over... Au contraire:

Customs workers have extended their strike against salary freezes and bonus cuts through next Wednesday, when unions across Greece will hold a general strike that is set to bring the country to a standstill.

Funny little world we live in.

You can really draw parallels to Canada. Endlessly people vote for parties on the basis of what that party will give them when elected. Heck the Liberals ran a whole campaign on WHAT they would give us.

Even though Canada financially is far stable than other G20 countries there will be a time when we will have to look at which perks will need shoving down the toilet and which need severe alterations. You will then see the same kind of strikes here. Though they HAVE happened already on a much smaller scale.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by HOZ

You can really draw parallels to Canada. Endlessly people vote for parties on the basis of what that party will give them when elected. Heck the Liberals ran a whole campaign on WHAT they would give us.

Even though Canada financially is far stable than other G20 countries there will be a time when we will have to look at which perks will need shoving down the toilet and which need severe alterations. You will then see the same kind of strikes here. Though they HAVE happened already on a much smaller scale.

Only if you can draw parallels between an Audi and a snail in that they are heading in the same direction. Can you cite an example of a Liberal politician showing up at a constituents door and saying that they would give a family member a job for life should they be elected? If it happened, I'm sure it would be a big news story.... but it's so commonplace in Greece that it would be like reporting that the sun rose this morning.

A rational discussion of how to properly use public funds does not equate to offering cash and goods to voters. Suggesting a government program such as a national child care program is not the same thing as showing up on voters doorsteps and trading ouzo for support at the polls.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Only if you can draw parallels between an Audi and a snail in that they are heading in the same direction. Can you cite an example of a Liberal politician showing up at a constituents door and saying that they would give a family member a job for life should they be elected? If it happened, I'm sure it would be a big news story.... but it's so commonplace in Greece that it would be like reporting that the sun rose this morning.

A rational discussion of how to properly use public funds does not equate to offering cash and goods to voters. Suggesting a government program such as a national child care program is not the same thing as showing up on voters doorsteps and trading ouzo for support at the polls.

I said parallels and yes Greece went WAY WAY WAY beyond their means, yet there are parallels. We are in debt. They the politicians just didn't come to your door. No party in Canada is innocent of this charge.

BTW...

Previous Liberal Platform *the whole thing is about how much they will give us. Snippet below.

• $70 billion over the next 10 years to improve the critical infrastructure that supports Canada’s competitiveness and quality of life and will divert unanticipated annual budget surpluses to infrastructure projects:

• at least $10 billion for strategic infrastructure, particularly green infrastructure such as clean water and sewage treatment, and clean energy grids;

• at least $8 billion for a national transit strategy that will enable cities to expand their systems and green their transit fleets;

• at least $3 billion for a dedicated Small Communities Fund;

• at least $4.5 billion for Gateways, Corridors and Borders to ensure that Canada’s infrastructure facilitates trade and tourism industries while keeping Canada safe and secure;

• at least $3 billion for sports and recreational facilities.

Sigh....

[Devils'Advocate]

I hate clean water. Down with sewage treatment.

I, personally, don't mind tax dollars going to any of those things.
I would mind tax dollars going to empty "jobs" given to people as bribes for votes.

I've changed my mind. The Audi and snail aren't even going in the same direction.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

The riots have died down since the bailout. But the people protesting did have a point... the corrupt politicians that bankrupted the country should be brought to justice, along with the corrupt bankers. I'm not surprised by what happened here... just surpised it doesn't happen more often. The rich steal from populace and leave them bankrupt, and if history is any indication those that were stolen from will suffer and those that stole the money will live their lives in luxury.

Between Goldman Sachs working with the Greek government to hide their debt, or the bribes paid by industry to officials to grease their palms... as Sarbanes-Oxley says, "Business has played a big role in the crisis that threatens to destroy the Eurozone and European currency."

I wonder who elected those corrupt politicians and why. I'm thinking it may had something to do with voters who sold their votes to the highest bidder.

Goldman Sachs is rotten, you won't get an argument against that from me, but they "merely" supplied a "solution" when there was demand. A demand to find ways to hide enormous debts amassed by Greek politicians who were busy spending money they didn't have in order appeal to masses and buy votes.

The sense of entitlement in some people is amazing. WE HAVE RIGHT to receive this, we have right to receive that, welfare state, etc. and when the house of cards falls down it's the evil bankers fault. Righteo.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I hate clean water. Down with sewage treatment.

I, personally, don't mind tax dollars going to any of those things.
I would mind tax dollars going to empty "jobs" given to people as bribes for votes.

I've changed my mind. The Audi and snail aren't even going in the same direction.

You're missing the point.

There is nothing wrong with public financing of certain projects. But we have to make absolutely sure as voters that those projects are worthwhile, and that they don't send the country in a down spiral of debt and a crashing economy.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're missing the point.

There is nothing wrong with public financing of certain projects. But we have to make absolutely sure as voters that those projects are worthwhile, and that they don't send the country in a down spiral of debt and a crashing economy.

I'm not missing the point at all. HOZ is making a parallel between worthwhile projects like green solutions to waste treatment vs obvious government waste like what was happening in Greece. It's apples and oranges.

[Kavvy]

This seems like the right thread for this?

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/26/news...dum/index.html

Talks in Europe over how to save the country from defaulting on its debt collapsed Saturday.

Anxious Greeks queued at ATMs to withdraw cash, worried that banks may not open after the weekend and that Greece may have to abandon the euro. Billions have already been taken out in recent months as the crisis deepened.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

This seems like the right thread for this?

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/26/news...dum/index.html

And here I was hoping to avoid a worldwide, chain reaction economic collapse on a Monday.

[chemgear]

The Greeks? Three quarters of whom figure that they shouldn't have to pay their mortgage? Who try to hide their backyard swimming pools from google maps to avoid proper property taxes, if they even bother paying taxes at all? The same guys who also in the midst of all this financial mess figured it was a great idea to declare kleptomania, pyromania and pedophilia a "disability" and give them money that they didn't remotely have?

Yeah . . .

[Thor]

Originally Posted by chemgear

The Greeks? Three quarters of whom figure that they shouldn't have to pay their mortgage? Who try to hide their backyard swimming pools from google maps to avoid proper property taxes, if they even bother paying taxes at all? The same guys who also in the midst of all this financial mess figured it was a great idea to declare kleptomania, pyromania and pedophilia a "disability" and give them money that they didn't remotely have?

Yeah . . .

lol wow

[pylon]

Originally Posted by chemgear

The Greeks? Three quarters of whom figure that they shouldn't have to pay their mortgage? Who try to hide their backyard swimming pools from google maps to avoid proper property taxes, if they even bother paying taxes at all? The same guys who also in the midst of all this financial mess figured it was a great idea to declare kleptomania, pyromania and pedophilia a "disability" and give them money that they didn't remotely have?

Yeah . . .

Holy crap, I thought this was just some sort of crazy hyperbole, but yup, I couldn't believe it when I looked it up.... you get paid to diddle kids, steal and burn down peoples homes in Greece. No wonder the country is such a mess.

On a side note. When I was young, I delivered Pizza for 3 different pizza joints over a few years, and back then, I think every single Greek family in Calgary owned one. The one consistency of all 3, was they were the most self entitled tax cheats I ever saw, there's a reason they give you a discount for cash...lol. The owner of one called me a 'Stupid Malaka' for finding out I was declaring my delivery, not my tips, just the base income on my taxes, and basically fired me since I never got hardly any shifts afterward, because he was worried they could backtrack and figure out how much he was actually selling, based on what I was declaring. He thought I paid enough at my full time job, and I should just pocket all of it. Seriously, I got in crap from an employer, for legally declaring my income.

And every single one of them would get in weekly yelling matches over unpaid bills with suppliers too. One of them was buying his food at Safeway, and Wholesale club, because he stiffed every single vendor in town, and nobody would deal with him anymore. There certainly is a freebie culture with them.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Reaper

And here I was hoping to avoid a worldwide, chain reaction economic collapse on a Monday.

I don't think that you have a lot to worry about there. I sure hope not, but we are much more prepared globally for the Greek collapse than we were five years ago when this saga began.

[chemgear]

It probably started 15 years ago when Greece falsified their finances get into the Euro in the first place.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by chemgear

It probably started 15 years ago when Greece falsified their finances get into the Euro in the first place.

Well historically the Greeks have been in default for about 90 of the past say 200 years or so. Its a problem they've battled literally for centuries there, and is hardly the first actual default for them (assuming they fail to reach another agreement here).

[transplant99]

What a clusterfata. Banks are now shut down for a week while things are trying to get sorted out.

Not good.

[chemgear]

Shutting down the banks to prevent a run on them isn't going to help the panic. But to be honest, I don't know why anybody would have money left in those banks in the first place, it was pretty clear years ago where this was going; though I guess the rate might have been decent.

They've been kicking the can down the road for years, maybe they'll do sort it out . . . for a few months only to start this over all again.

[CaptainCrunch]

The ATM's are limiting people to withdraw of $67.00 per day to prevent a run on the banks.

The Greek's have messed around for this for too long, there's no reason for the Euro to help them out any more, and to get them out of the Eurozone.

The Greek's will have to basically withdraw, formulate their own currency, declare national bankruptcy, and pay massive interest rates on loans.

The government that came in with a lot of bluster about basically bending the will of the Eurozone to their demands,

Basically the head of the Euro Commission called the Greek Prime Minister a liar and a egomaniac.

It looks like the market has taken a major hit today already.

next on the list is Puerto Rico who's basically came out this weekend and stated that they could make payments on their $73 billion dollar debt, and that the country is in a economic death spiral because of overspending and over borrowing.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/news...hp-toplead-dom