Suppliments

[wooohooo]

There's a lot of different body types out there and for the super skinny kids- they can pretty much eat anything and not gain anything. That's why they need some 'extreme' calories to gain some significant weight. I know for my friend his goal was to add 30 pounds to his weight (he was super skinny) and working out 4 times a week was not getting him the weight. I don't see a problem with putting on pounds if you need to. Obviously if you're chunky, you're not going to go and eat a tub of weight gainers.

Of course it's best to put on lean muscle and eat healthy food, but for some people they will never put on any weight. Ever see how funny those super fit, kinda muscular but are still scrony looking because they have no meat?

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Suffice to say there are a lot of victims.

I'm going to assume you have been a victim a lot the way you always talk down supplements and their benefits.

[daaznfob]

Originally Posted by drewboy12

I think you are mistaken. My buddy who was tall and skinny in high school is now ripped. Not fat, but pure muscle... at his largest he was eating like 12,000 calories of junk a day to keep the size on. KFC for breakfast, double big macs for lunch, pizza for dinner, as many cookies as he could stomach before bed.

Dont get me wrong, he wasn't as healthy as he could have been, but he looked good. Not fat at all...

Yea it isn't a right or wrong answer. what works for some people may not in others. it just depends on the body type i guess. I also know a friend who was like this too.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by J pold

I always find this type of information very useful but also extremely overwhelming, every where you turn someone has something to say about supplements, diet, exercise etc.

I'll toss it out to your guys I'm 6'4 205, I'm a pretty in shape guy and have been working out on and off for 3 years. Right now I'm going to the gym at 1.5 hours a day 6 days a week doing the P90x program. I always try and have a constant diet but it's hard to maintain. Right now my typical day looks like this:

Wake up 8:30 Breakfast: Either a couple of eggs on toast, peanut butter on toast, or yogurt and cottage cheese.

I bring a large mixture of almonds, carrots, and crasins that I eat throughout the day.

I normally get home around 3 when I make a salad of spinach, tuna, and cottage cheese.

Than for dinner I eat some combination of pasta or rice, chicken or fish.

After that I just go back to eating Almonds, carrots, crasins, or blueberries until I go to bed.

The only supplement I take is a recovery drink after I work out (normally around 10 every morning) called ISOFLEX. I'd like to gain some lean muscle and lose a bit of weight (around 200 pounds)

If someone can make any sort of recommendation as to what I should or shouldn't being doing that would be great, thanks in advance.

You're not getting enough protein. And for your height, you're too skinny. You should eat more meat during the day.

Get the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, read it then follow it for your workouts. Also drink a gallon of WHOLE milk each day. Costco has the best price on it.

Do this and you'll only be going to the gym three times a week for less than an hour each time. But you'll gain muscle and if you gain enough muscle, you won't care about having a perfect six pack.

[worth]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Anything with a 3:1 carbs : protein ratio is an ideal recovery snack immediately after exercise or physical exertion. Chocolate milk is certainly a popular one.

And yes, you are correct in saying it's likely a placebo thing. Recovery supplements likely (probably) pale in comparison to 3:1 carbs : protein, since that's what actual, scientific evidence recommends.


Don't get away from the essence of what a recovery drink is and does. A quick boost to energy levels and something to help initiate recovery (ie from microtears) is what you're looking for, not eating half your caloric intake along with a host of supplements in one serving. Again, I recommend the 3:1 carbs : protein snack, followed by a meal 1-2 hours after.

Endurox is a 4:1 carbrotein drink. Thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by united

If you are trying to make good healthy gains you should be trying to exceed your calorie usage by 300-500 calories per day as well as maintaining a healthy diet of roughly 40% protein/40% carbohydrates/20% fat (good fat). You can find all the nutritional information on the food or websites.

You should eat several small meals per day, which you are doing.

To estimate how many calories you should consume there are some basic calculators to give you a rough idea. Perhaps someone else knows a better method than I do and can chime in.

Calculate your BMI here:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bmr_calculator.htm

add that to,

Your estimated daily activity level
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calories.htm

and add 500 calories to that.

This is what I get:

BMR: 2,668 kcal/day
When I work out: 400 calories
plus: 500 calories
= 3,568 calories / day

There's no way i'm getting that many calories a day, and I don't think it's even possible for me to eat that much. I'm probably getting maybe 2,500 calories/day. Maybe.

The problem with me is I just don't know what else to eat. I may have to take a good look at my diet and see what else I can add. because I know there are certain points in my day in which i'm hungry, but I can't cook 6 meals a day. We all have stuff to do and work to go to. That's why most of my 5 or 6 meals are prepared ahead of time or are things that can be stored or made easily.

[burn_baby_burn]

I'm no expert, but I have found over the years that if I don't eat enough my work outs suffer. For instance around 10 years ago I was disappointed in how slow I was losing weight despite running five miles 5 times a week. I thought I would try the Slimfast diet. So for breakfast and lunch I would have Slimfast then I would have a sensible dinner. It was all I could do to run one mile and I was totally exhausted. Obviously my body wasn't getting enough fuel.

I found the same thing with weight training. I would eat lunch at noon and usually hit the gym around 5:30pm. During my workout i would feel real depleted and out of energy. I started eating a pre workout meal about an hour and a half before I hit the gym and it made a big difference.

Right now I hit the gym at 5:30am. That can be a challenge to eat before I head to the gym since I don't want to get up at 4am to eat a pre workout meal. The night before I will eat a small meal before I go to bed, usually oatmeal mixed with cottage cheese. Then when I get out of bed I will drink a bunch of water and eat a banana. It isn't ideal, I find my energy to be much better during my weekend workouts when I can space my meals perfectly before I hit the gym. It is as good as I can get without knowing what else I can do.

[united]

Originally Posted by worth

This is what I get:

BMR: 2,668 kcal/day
When I work out: 400 calories
plus: 500 calories
= 3,568 calories / day

There's no way i'm getting that many calories a day, and I don't think it's even possible for me to eat that much. I'm probably getting maybe 2,500 calories/day. Maybe.

The problem with me is I just don't know what else to eat. I may have to take a good look at my diet and see what else I can add. because I know there are certain points in my day in which i'm hungry, but I can't cook 6 meals a day. We all have stuff to do and work to go to. That's why most of my 5 or 6 meals are prepared ahead of time or are things that can be stored or made easily.

Sorry, I didn't even try that calculator before I posted it. That's totally overboard. I've edited my original post.
Try using the Harris-Benedict equation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris-Benedict_equation:

BMR = 66 + ( 13.7 x weight in kg ) + ( 5 x height in cm ) - ( 6.76 x age in years )
BMR x you activity factor
and add or subtract calories depending on your goal.

I hear you on eating the amount of food in that many meals is tough. It took me quite a while to get used to it, for sure. I pre-make almost everything the night before.

[worth]

That makes more sense.

BMR = 1,640 x 1.55 = 2,543

And after doing some quick calculations, i'm taking in around maybe 2,100-2,300 calories/day. Just not enough like woohoo has said.

[troutman]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3547

Supplement or alternative medical therapies promoters keep citing their “science” in claiming that supplements or alternative medical therapies are safe and effective. UnNaturalNews asks one simple question: Where is this science?

This is a satire story or a parody. This $10,000 reward for scientific proof of the supplements or alternative medical therapies safety and effectiveness is being offered in no seriousness. What do I look like, The JREF? The offer is valid through April 1, 2010.

It’s simple, really. If such scientific proof exists, it should require less than an hour to find it. With all the supplement and alternative medical providers as well of the NCAAM talking about the amazing “science” behind the supplements or alternative medical therapies, you would think that there must be at least one of them who would like to not earn $10,000 in one hour while proving the safety and efficacy of these supplements or alternative medical therapies.

Is there one such person who would claim this $10,000?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...3&pagewanted=2

A recent study in Spain found that a 4-to-1 carbohydrate-protein solution is more quickly absorbed by the stomach during exercise than a carbohydrate-only beverage is. And research financed by PacificHealth (which makes Endurox R4 and Accelerade), found Accelerade to be 15 percent more effective than Gatorade and 40 percent more effective than plain water for the purpose of rehydrating athletes.

Many in the medical community remain skeptical. ''I'm cautious,'' said Dr. Domenic Sica, an internist at the Virginia Commonwealth University Medical Center in Richmond, who works with the school's athletic department. ''There are some data that exercising to the point of exhaustion can be improved upon by provision of protein. But it's just an observational phenomenon. Mechanistically it's not been proven yet.''

Dr. Eugene Hong, the chief of sports medicine at Drexel University College of Medicine in Philadelphia, said, ''The big problem with most of these studies is that a very small number of people is being studied.''

[GreenLantern]

I use N.O. about 20 minutes before my work out, then I hop on the stair master or bike for 10 minutes and I am just ready to rip.

I have noticed that I have a lot more energy at the gym (caffeine) and have yet to notice any negative side effects. (I work out at 5 and have no trouble sleeping at night).

I get in there and I find myself doing more reps. The first week I maxed out my reps at the weight I had been struggling with for a few weeks prior, and was forced to move up a weight class. I am really enjoying this stuff, after this batch is done I am not sure I will continue to use it, but it has been a great source of energy to get over this hump.

As for diet, it changes by the month, but I have a few staples (oatmeal, chicken breasts, snap peas) that stay with me. This week I am at:

7:30: Oatmeal, 1/2 grapefruit, protein shake
10:00: Protein bar (low carb), mixed nuts (between 1/2 to 1 cup almonds, cashews, walnuts etc. unsalted)
12:00: Chicken breast, whole grain wild rice, green beans
2:00: Carrots/snap peas
4:00: Protein muffin (recipe has whole wheat flower, apple sauce instead of butter, lots of fibre, organic peanut butter, protein isolate)
6:30: Post work out shake
7:00: Salmon w/ green beans and whole grain wild rice
9:00: Yogurt, apple, cantelope, pineapple (it changes nightly)


I was on a very strict diet for a few months, and I loved it saw lots of results, lately I have been easing up a bit, just watching my portions and eating healthy food. Not really into the whole 6 meals of protein at the moment since I am in a state where I feel good.


It is overwhelming, there is a lot of info. So just pick something that you think sounds good, try it. Keep it or toss it, try another. You have to figure out what works for you. When I first started dieting I was not gaining weight where I wanted it, so I had to adjust my work out and diet routine. It took a lot of fiddling around to get to where I am at, but in the long run it is worth it. There is no magical answer or cure to this, its hard work and a LOT of dedication. Nothing worth having ever came easy.

[Tron_fdc]

Green Lanterns advice is probably the best advice in this thread. Asking a bunch of people on line what they suggest might steer you in the right direction, but most people are going to tell you what works for them, which isn't necessarily what works for you.

The best place to start is a blanced diet and exercise routine, stick with it, then go from there. Don't get caught up in fad diets or routines, and most importantly don't take the advice of a 250lb plug in the gym when he asks if you want "real" supplements

[united]

Agreed with GreenLantern. Do your research and find what works best for you, there is so much information out there it is quite intimidating.

It takes a lot of trial and error and a change of lifestyle but it's well worth it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by J pold

I always find this type of information very useful but also extremely overwhelming, every where you turn someone has something to say about supplements, diet, exercise etc.

I'll toss it out to your guys I'm 6'4 205, I'm a pretty in shape guy and have been working out on and off for 3 years. Right now I'm going to the gym at 1.5 hours a day 6 days a week doing the P90x program. I always try and have a constant diet but it's hard to maintain. Right now my typical day looks like this:

Wake up 8:30 Breakfast: Either a couple of eggs on toast, peanut butter on toast, or yogurt and cottage cheese.

I bring a large mixture of almonds, carrots, and crasins that I eat throughout the day.

I normally get home around 3 when I make a salad of spinach, tuna, and cottage cheese.

Than for dinner I eat some combination of pasta or rice, chicken or fish.

After that I just go back to eating Almonds, carrots, crasins, or blueberries until I go to bed.

The only supplement I take is a recovery drink after I work out (normally around 10 every morning) called ISOFLEX. I'd like to gain some lean muscle and lose a bit of weight (around 200 pounds)

If someone can make any sort of recommendation as to what I should or shouldn't being doing that would be great, thanks in advance.

It can be a little overwhelming, but you just kind of have to tinker with it until you find the right combination. It took me a while to get the right diet down that was allowing me to shed fat but also giving me enough energy to finish my workouts. If you're trying to burn fat, load up on fats and protein and cut down on the carbs. My diet usually looks like this:

7 AM - 3 eggs, 3 strips of thick cut bacon, 1/2 cup of salsa
10 AM - 1 large banana
Noon - Low-carb protein powder + 8 oz. Almond milk (I use this stuff http://www.kaizenprotein.com/nutrition.html)
2:30 PM - 20 almonds + 50-75g of cheese
4:30 PM - workout
6 PM - Post-workout shake (same as the lunch shake)
7 PM - 300g of Meat + low-starch vegetables (i.e. broccoli, asparagus, green beans, salad)

This works out to about 1800-1900 calories/day. The % ratio of fat: protein:carbs is approximately 45:40:15.

Judging from your height and weight, I don't think you need to lose any weight. I'm 5'8 170 lbs, which equals out to approximately the same BMI as you (25). Technically, over 24.9 BMI = overweight, if you take BMI really seriously (I don't because it doesn't calculate bone structure and muscle mass). That being said, if you eat like this and workout as much as you do, you should be burning fat like crazy.

I also take omega-3 fish oil pills as a suppliments and drink about half a gallon of water everyday. Right now I'm actually trying to just gain strength and muscle so I'm eating a few more carbs than normal so I can get through the program I do. When I was doing this diet back in the fall with a low-weight, high-rep workout (+ 20-30 min of cardio each workout), I was burning fat like crazy.

[united]

My sample diet (bulking). Please critique it if you think it could be better, I am always tinkering and always open to new suggestions. I find this is manageable with a full-time job. The times are just estimates, things like meetings can throw the times off and things come up of course.

6 am - Protein shake with flax oil, granola bar, multi-vitamin
930 am - Apple, bagel, 4 eggs
1130 am - Some pineapple
Noon - Run, bike or skip
1 pm - Chicken breast, rice, mixed green salad
330 pm - Spinach salad, banana
5 pm - Oatmeal
530 pm - Workout
7 pm (immediately after workout) - Protein shake
830 pm - Steak or chicken breast, rice, mixed green salad
1030pm - Protein shake with flax oil, banana

I have a coffee or two week days and otherwise I drink water constantly.

About 3000 to 3300 calories, protein:fat:carbs = 42:15:43 so not quite where I want it to be.

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by drewboy12

I think you are mistaken. My buddy who was tall and skinny in high school is now ripped. Not fat, but pure muscle... at his largest he was eating like 12,000 calories of junk a day to keep the size on. KFC for breakfast, double big macs for lunch, pizza for dinner, as many cookies as he could stomach before bed.

Dont get me wrong, he wasn't as healthy as he could have been, but he looked good. Not fat at all...

We all know guys that can eat and never get fat, (I hate them) But that diet will kill him, you can only get away with eating like that when your young...Maybe, young people stroke out too.

[GreenLantern]

Something united said as well really sticks out that I forgot to mention, water.

You need 8-10 glasses a day, and that is a minimum, to replace what you are losing. You should be drinking water constantly in your day, no matter where you are. The only side effect of drinking lots of water when you exercise regularly is that you will pee more, and after a while your bladder will get used to it.

Cut out all of those sugary juices, coffee etc.. as much as you can. Skim Milk or Almond milk is great too, but if you want to talk about supplements then water is your building block.

Sorry I know we kind of got side tracked from supplements in this thread, but I think that should show you that its more about what you eat than the supplements you take with your work out.

Results are 80-90% diet!

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by united

7 pm (immediately after workout) - Protein shake
830 pm - Steak or chicken breast, rice, mixed green salad

I'd suggest to eat dinner as soon after the workout as possible. Sure the protein shake fills you up, but you should forcefeed yourself at least half of the portion (and then eat the other half at 830pm).

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

You're not getting enough protein. And for your height, you're too skinny. You should eat more meat during the day.

Get the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, read it then follow it for your workouts. Also drink a gallon of WHOLE milk each day. Costco has the best price on it.

Do this and you'll only be going to the gym three times a week for less than an hour each time. But you'll gain muscle and if you gain enough muscle, you won't care about having a perfect six pack.

For the calories that you use up in a day:

Proteins (amino acids) are used for the formation of protein (muscle). As I mentioned, there is a protein "ceiling" of ~1.8g / kg of bodyweight. It is thought that exceeding 2.0g / kg of body weight a day stresses the kidneys and perhaps may lead to long term damage.

Carbohydrates are stored as glycogen.

Fats are used up as energy or stored in adipose tissue.

For the excess calories you take in each day:

All excess protein, carbohydrates, and fat are stored in adipose tissue (fat)

When you talk about "bulking up" by eating a ######ed amount of food you are simply adding fat, no muscle. If the same person with a decent amount of muscle was compared to themselves with 50 extra pounds of fat, of course the 50 extra pound guy will be bigger, but that's all fat, not muscle.

You prescribed Jpold to eat more, yet you don't know his caloric needs, his work out routine, how many calories he is getting nor how much protein. He also mentioned he wanted to lose weight.

Some people actually have health motives. Gaining fat makes you unhealthy. You can be low body fat and be unhealthy, but you can't have a lot of excess body fat and be healthy.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by HOOT

I'm going to assume you have been a victim a lot the way you always talk down supplements and their benefits.

That's quite the (erroneous) assumption.

I live in a cynical world where you cannot take a supplement and miraculously lose 50 pounds of fat and gain a ton of muscle in a couple of days without side effects.

Originally Posted by drewboy12

I think you are mistaken. My buddy who was tall and skinny in high school is now ripped. Not fat, but pure muscle... at his largest he was eating like 12,000 calories of junk a day to keep the size on. KFC for breakfast, double big macs for lunch, pizza for dinner, as many cookies as he could stomach before bed.

Dont get me wrong, he wasn't as healthy as he could have been, but he looked good. Not fat at all...

12,000 calories is more than Michael Phelps eats in a day. In order for someone to eat that much without gaining weight they would have to be burning something like 9,000 calories a day. Do people even burn that doing the iron man?

I assure you his eating habits and nothing to do with his muscularity.

Originally Posted by J pold

I'd like to gain some lean muscle and lose a bit of weight (around 200 pounds).

First off, those who are assuming your body type from your height and weight are likely off. BMI usually means very little unless coupled with your body fat % (which most people don't have access to, calipers are very erroneous), or at the very least, your waist circumference.

To lose weight, you need to burn more calories (metabolism + physical activity) than you take in. While you can calculate this, it's not really necessary. Take a look at the labels on the food you eat and try to slowly eliminate the high calorie, low nutrient dense stuff. Or at least replace these things with more nutrient dense, lower calorie substitutes. Looking at the food you listed, nothing really sticks out to me as being especially bad. Although remember things like alcohol and pop are really bad calorie wise.

To gain muscle, it's as simple as resistance training with regularity. You have many options for resistance training. You can volume train (6 - 10 reps), or intensity train (1 - 4 reps focusing on the "big 3" compound lifts). After that, there's the types of exercises you do, what body parts you work out when, frequency of training, among other things. If you came to me asking for a recommendation, I would suggest (to start with) working out 3 non-consecutive days a week, each day working your whole body. For example, MWF with bench press, rows, leg press, hamstring curls, crunches, hyperextensions, all with 6 - 10 reps and 3 sets. You would also throw in warm-up and stretching with a cooldown, and could also do arm work. That also leaves 4 days a week you can do cardio. There are a lot of choices when it comes to resistance training.

[Azure]

Chocolate Milk is the cheaper alternative to something like Surge Workout Fuel.

But it certainly doesn't have a lot of the added vitamins and minerals that something like Surge does have.

And the after workout drink is certainly not a placebo. If I'm playing a hockey game 2 nights in a row, its amazing the difference chocolate milk makes.

As for the other stuff....its overwhelming to me too.

4 things everyone should take.

Omega3s.
Vitamin D - I can promise you that you're not getting enough.
CQ10 - especially if you're on a cholesterol drug.
Multi-vitamin - its very hard to get 100% of your needed daily value through food.