Pope: Condoms not the answer to AIDS in Africa

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Technically, yes. Practically, no. The majority of people are always going to bump uglies, it's only a matter of time. Might as well promote safe sex, so when they get to the no pants dance they do it safe. Plus with all the nonsense and pseudoscience being spread around with AIDS this is only compounding the problem.

Abstinence only education has been shown to be completely ineffective. Peoples biological urges are usually stronger than their religious convictions.

But that the thing. How can you condemn somone for having a practically correct opinion? How can you condemn anyone for having an opinion? And yes, obviously the pope holds influence, but it's still technically an opinion.

As I said, I disagree with it wholeheartedly and would love to see the church actually do something about it. But to compare it to murder? Come on.

Besides, there is going to be more progress for this situation from groups outside the church. There always is, and there always will be. Holding your breath waiting for the church to 'do the right thing' will kill you fairly quickly.

And that wouldn't be murder on their hands either... That would still be your choice.

[Burninator]

What the pope is telling people is the equivalent to telling drivers that the key to road safety is driving really slow. That seats belts are not required for safe driving and that the focus should be on speed-abstinence.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its great that human biology should be looked at in terms of this debate. Yes people are going to bump uglies, but there's no 100% way to prevent the spread of aids once you start bumping uglies. Condom's are not 100% prevention pieces.

The only 100% way to avoid aids is to either not have sex or share blood bodily products, or have sex with some one that you know doesn't have it.

If the pope said use a condom go nuts, frack away, condoms will prevent aids, that would be more akin to murder, and yet not even close.

I agree, Africa needs education, they need their governments to actually work the solution instead of putting insane ministers in charge of it that believe in witch doctors.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Burninator

What the pope is telling people is the equivalent to telling drivers that the key to road safety is driving really slow. That seats belts are not required for safe driving and that the focus should be on speed-abstinence.

Oh I get what your saying. I completely understand the impracticality of the comments in the seriousness of the situation. I'm just not ready to jump to the 'murder' label. That's how things get out of hand. On side jumps on the other side and over states something. Then the other side has to top that. Pretty soon, there is no factual information left.

Besides there's enough death and destruction to blame the church for. And like I said, it's the church, they are always going to be about 300 years behind the times anyway. We all could have guessed this would be the pope's position.

[Ford Prefect]

At least he didn't suggest using the rhythm method.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Daradon

But that the thing. How can you condemn somone for having a practically correct opinion? How can you condemn anyone for having an opinion? And yes, obviously the pope holds influence, but it's still technically an opinion.

It's not a practically correct opinion at all. It's the total opposite of practical. First he is asking everyone to become a Catholic and not have sex till they are married. Which is not practical. He is asking everyone to not have sex till they are married, which is not practical, as even in this country almost everyone has sex before they are married anyways. Sure it's his opinion, but give me one good reason why I can't condemn his opinion when it's killing people?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Burninator

It's not a practically correct opinion at all. It's the total opposite of practical. First he is asking everyone to become a Catholic and not have sex till they are married. Which is not practical. He is asking everyone to not have sex till they are married, which is not practical, as even in this country almost everyone has sex before they are married anyways. Sure it's his opinion, but give me one good reason why I can't condemn his opinion when it's killing people?

Sorry technically correct. Misspoke.

And opinions don't kill people, sorry. There's still choice and a whole other host of variables in there far more directly responsible.

EDIT: Condemn it if you want, but it's not MURDER. It's a misguided impractical opinion which some people will listen to but many others will not.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Burninator

It's not a practically correct opinion at all. It's the total opposite of practical. First he is asking everyone to become a Catholic and not have sex till they are married. Which is not practical. He is asking everyone to not have sex till they are married, which is not practical, as even in this country almost everyone has sex before they are married anyways. Sure it's his opinion, but give me one good reason why I can't condemn his opinion when it's killing people?

He's also on the record as asking people not to commit Murder, or to stop stealing. To listen to their neighbor and not attack them. He's on the record as asking them to stop believing their witch doctors and such who make claims like sex with a Virgin will cure AIDS. He wants an end to Child Soldiers.


None of these things has stopped. It is not practical to think that people will stop murdering each other. Even after poverty has been alleviated. It is not practical to think that asking people to stop stealing will make it so.

Does this make someone who asks for these things "impractical"? Should we stop expecting people to not lie because we think that they will anyways? Wouldn't it be more practical to "expect" people to lie? Telling them they can't or shouldn't lie is the opposite of practical, is it not, because there will be lying anyways?


The problem here is that the Pope is a religious figure, so his primary focus is on the absolute, the difference between right and wrong. The Pope is trying to get people to try to be perfect. Even if this is impossible (and the Pope knows this), for him not to try would be going against what he believes, and would be going against his role. You may disagree with what he believes, but you need to take into consideration what his job really is, and why he says what he does. It's not wrong to condemn what he says on the grounds that the results are killing people, but it MUST be considered first why his claims are made the way they are.


Now personally, I don't think the job should even rightly exist. As a protestant, I realize that finding truth is more difficult than that, and having a single voice of authority can lead to things exactly like this - where a claim made will have the very wrong unintended consequences of idiots selectively listening to what is being said and only doing/responding to a part of it. The biggest problem with the situation, tho, is that people are stupid and will do stupid things even when they are told better, even when they know better themselves. But you can't stop telling them just because they won't listen. That's what education is - and that's what the Pope is trying to do. Whether or not he's succeeding is a different question.

[pepper24]

The Pope and Catholic Church continue to show how they are irrelevant in todays world and should keep their mouths shut.

Do molesting priests preach and practice abstinence then?

[Devils'Advocate]

(A) Those that say that condoms are a waste on the stupid Africans are wrong. Look at Uganda. Condoms + education = one of the few AIDS success stories in Africa.
Read:
http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm

(B) If you read that full article, you will see that the ABC program (Abstenance, Being Faithful, and Condoms) was a huge success. Until the church wanted the government to drop the C. Pressure from religious groups have stopped the government from promoting condom use and AIDS rates are going in the wrong direction.

(C) If I tell someone that I will kill his family unless he shoots my annoying neighbor, he may have a defence and I should go away for murder. But if I tell someone that he will burn for an eternity in the firey lakes of hell unless he shoots my annoying neighbor, he has no defence and I get off scott free, no?

[Circa89]

Condoms are not the answer. The mosquitos will keep the population in control.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Knalus

He's also on the record as asking people not to commit Murder, or to stop stealing. To listen to their neighbor and not attack them. He's on the record as asking them to stop believing their witch doctors and such who make claims like sex with a Virgin will cure AIDS. He wants an end to Child Soldiers.


None of these things has stopped. It is not practical to think that people will stop murdering each other. Even after poverty has been alleviated. It is not practical to think that asking people to stop stealing will make it so.

Does this make someone who asks for these things "impractical"? Should we stop expecting people to not lie because we think that they will anyways? Wouldn't it be more practical to "expect" people to lie? Telling them they can't or shouldn't lie is the opposite of practical, is it not, because there will be lying anyways?

This is all a non-sequitur to what I've been saying. I am not saying that getting rid of AIDS is impractical so we shouldn't do anything. I am saying that the popes solution is impractical and causes harm.

The problem here is that the Pope is a religious figure, so his primary focus is on the absolute, the difference between right and wrong. The Pope is trying to get people to try to be perfect. Even if this is impossible (and the Pope knows this), for him not to try would be going against what he believes, and would be going against his role. You may disagree with what he believes, but you need to take into consideration what his job really is, and why he says what he does. It's not wrong to condemn what he says on the grounds that the results are killing people, but it MUST be considered first why his claims are made the way they are.

To be honest I don't care how or why he has come to his beliefs and I surely don't have to respect his opinion when it is causing harm merely because it's his religious belief. It's a belief and a opinion and it's open to criticism like any other idea or belief.

Now personally, I don't think the job should even rightly exist. As a protestant, I realize that finding truth is more difficult than that, and having a single voice of authority can lead to things exactly like this - where a claim made will have the very wrong unintended consequences of idiots selectively listening to what is being said and only doing/responding to a part of it. The biggest problem with the situation, tho, is that people are stupid and will do stupid things even when they are told better, even when they know better themselves. But you can't stop telling them just because they won't listen. That's what education is - and that's what the Pope is trying to do. Whether or not he's succeeding is a different question.

But the problem is that his education is not helping, it's hindering. Of course people will do stupid things, but the information for Africans is not out there for them to know better. People will make the choice when they have the best information. I won't take a bigoted view of the African people like some people in this thread. If they have the best information they will choose the best means of protection. Abstinence only education has been shown ineffective time and time again.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Burninator

This is all a non-sequitur to what I've been saying...

To be honest I don't care how or why he has come to his beliefs and I surely don't have to respect his opinion when it is causing harm merely because it's his religious belief. It's a belief and a opinion and it's open to criticism like any other idea or belief.
But the problem is that his education is not helping, it's hindering.

It was a rant. People on the internets do it all the time.

I agree it's not helpful, but I just thought it was important that someone frame this discussion in a manner so that the contents of his message and the direction from where his message came from aren't considered the same thing. Not caring about where they come from or why they are there is the fastest route to angry partisanship bickering. People respect your views if you respect theirs. If not their substance, then at least their reasons. If they respect your views because you respect theirs, it's a lot easier to get things done, and to actually have a civil discussion/get a point across.

Once again, a little bit of a rant, but that is what the internet is so good for.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Well if I had a 40-50% risk of getting AIDS and dying a horrible, horrible death, I likely would.

....likely would? stop having sex?

Not that condoms wouldn't help....some people, but I doubt its the cure all for AIDS in Africa.

[LChoy]

Trying to keep this as serious as I can. So I understand that the Church has a position against contraceptives, but wouldn't they also be strongly against umm....self pleasure? Essentially both are wasting the potential of creating new life.
I imagine it wouldn't go over so well if the Pope came out and said to keep your hands to yourself, and wait until you find a person of the opposite gender and marry them before you can have the pleasure...

[CGYTransplant]

Originally Posted by Knalus

If they believed what the Pope was talking about, they would be abstaining from sex with anyone besides their spouse.

In a lot of cases, they do. But, what if one partner is born HIV+? All the monogamy in the world won't protect you if you're not using condoms (and yes, I know they're not 100% effective either).

And, like a prev. poster and I already mentioned, there is so much information about how AIDS can be "cured"- things like eating specific foods, or most heinously, having sex with a virgin...it's not cheating if it's a cure, now, is it (that's not MY opinion, I am making a blatant assumption about what the person would be thinking as they were doing the act)

[Bagor]

I have bog all to back this up except conversations that I had with locals during time spent travelling in Africa.

They were saying that in their opinion the problem was exacerbated by females using a plant pre sex that dried up vaginal mucous secretions. On the one hand this heightened sexual pleasure but on the other hand it broke down any defences (mucous membrane) the body had and allowed for easier transmission of the virus.

[TSXCman]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Nothing that's politically correct I'm sure.

jeez being PC is sure gay..

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I have bog all to back this up except conversations that I had with locals during time spent travelling in Africa.

They were saying that in their opinion the problem was exacerbated by females using a plant pre sex that dried up vaginal mucous secretions. On the one hand this heightened sexual pleasure but on the other hand it broke down any defences (mucous membrane) the body had and allowed for easier transmission of the virus.

Since when does a dried out vagina enhance sexual pleasure? That's bizarre.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I have bog all to back this up except conversations that I had with locals during time spent travelling in Africa.

They were saying that in their opinion the problem was exacerbated by females using a plant pre sex that dried up vaginal mucous secretions. On the one hand this heightened sexual pleasure but on the other hand it broke down any defences (mucous membrane) the body had and allowed for easier transmission of the virus.

WOW, sounds exciting

I wouldn't be bothering with that part, i'd reaching for her ears.