Red light cameras cause crashes

[llama64]

Originally Posted by guzzy

my bottom line......Cameras generate revenue which saves tax dollars. It is a user fee for stupid people. End of story. Pretty simple concept.

I was against these stupid red light camera's until you posted.

That's a very good point.

Next stop, user fees for smokers, alcoholics and fat people.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by llama64

I was against these stupid red light camera's until you posted.

That's a very good point.

Next stop, user fees for smokers, alcoholics and fat people.

Smokers and alcoholics already pay user fees. The fatties get off easy though -- bad food is cheap.

[Kerplunk]

It seems like most of the lights in Calgary have a 3 second yellow to them, regardless of what the road speed is. Increasing the time of the yellow light might give drivers that extra bit of time to make the correct decision without fear of a ticket. With the drivers in this city, red light cameras just increase the number of rear-end collisions.

[Sainters7]

This is EXACTLY why I got in my car accident last year(I rear ended someone who suddened slammed on their breaks), and why I'm now paying $188/month in insurance, despite being 26 years old and having a completely clean record otherwise.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

This is EXACTLY why I got in my car accident last year(I rear ended someone who suddened slammed on their breaks), and why I'm now paying $188/month in insurance, despite being 26 years old and having a completely clean record otherwise.

get a lawsuit against the city going.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

This is EXACTLY why I got in my car accident last year(I rear ended someone who suddened slammed on their breaks), and why I'm now paying $188/month in insurance, despite being 26 years old and having a completely clean record otherwise.

You know, there is a way to prove that you weren't at fault.

The same thing happened to a friend of mine, and his insurance ALSO skyrocketed despite an otherwise clean record.

He went through a process that really cut back his insurance payments. Not sure what it exactly was though.

[corporatejay]

I think red light cameras should be non-existent unless they have one of those "flashing signs" about 500m from the intersection. It's a pretty simple concept and if you get a ticket because you decide to try and run the light after being warned 500m in advance you're a moron.

I agree the counters probably don't help too much, they have them in edmonton, they're beneficial to me but far too often i see people just hammer it at like 3 or 4 seconds to beat the light.

[Flames09]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

What I find really handy are those pedestrian crossing signals that count down to when the light will change. I see quite a lot of those in Edmonton, but have only seen a couple of them in Calgary. I love those interesections because it tells me exactly how much time I have left, and whether I should start stopping, or just gun it to get through the intersection before it turns red.

Pedestrian cross signals are a good indicator anyways that you should brace yourself, there is no way someone should have trouble stopping safely, if they do then they are obviously travelling at an unsafe speed and probably deserve a fine.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

No. Every City has their own reasons and justifications for installing red light cameras. In Alberta, the case has been made that they drastically reduce red-light running and the associated severe collisions. There are cases in Western Canada where red light running at specific intersections has been reduced from hundreds of occurences per week to single digits. There is direct statistical correlation between # of occurences and # of collisions.

Most studies are ambiguous at best about the impact on rear-end collisions. I have seen both ends of the spectrum - in some places the rear-end collisions increase a bit, in other places they decrease.

Its funny how people think that red light cameras are some sort of boogey man - lurking in the shadows of busy urban streets ready to pounce out at you and take your money. Red light cameras are simply an enforcement tool that allow the police to enforce a law (red light running) which is very difficult and resource-intensive to enforce without a technological solution. They are not hidden - in fact most cities clearly sign every intersection where the cameras are located.

The duration of yellow lights and the "all-red" time after the yellow is calculated using published formulas in engineering handbooks. Edmonton and Calgary use the same calculations - and no they did not change the calculation when red light cameras were implemented in the late 90s.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions and driving habits. If you are that worried about being rear-ended, slow down gradually as you approach intersections. The guy behind you will either slow down or go around you. Is it such a bad thing to drive defensively and be aware of your surroundings? Or is it preferable to have open season on red light running?

That is a different point entirely. Obviously if there is more data pro-red light then anti-red light then there is no case.

The point is that IF data started to actually pile-up (which this thread was suggesting but on your authority is false) and that they are more dangerous then helpful then that case shifts.

Once that happens, if it ever happened, the city would have to remove them or be liable for them.


I actually like photo radar and red light camera's in theory, and i love sin taxes - for the reason mentioned in this thread - they are stupid people taxes.

But i have also had a couple close calls at red light camera'd intersections, most notably the one at Crowchild @ 24th Ave, and think they are far from the end-all solution. Twice i have almost been rear ended at rush hour and numerous times i have almost hit the person slamming on their brakes in front of me, again at rush hour. During regular hours i find them safer but the dynamics (for better or worse) change during rush hour and these don't allow for that.

Just because people are complaining doesn't mean they don't know how to drive and/or drive defensively. The problem is that you can only control your own actions and on a busy freeway at rush hour it is not me i am worried about, it is the 16 year old chump behind me and the 85 year old grandma in front of me. Every time i approach that intersection i have to worry about her slamming on her brakes and him slamming into my rear end. And if i keep going through that intersection because that kid is on my ass and would have hit me what is my defense in court? And if i hit that grandma who literally slammed on her brakes on Crowchild, although certainly more my fault for not leaving enough following distance, it is not particularily fair to me when my insurance goes up. If everyone at rush hour left the ideal following distance traffic would literally grind to a hault. At 80kmph on Crowchild that distance is 243 feet per car (3 sec), with an extra defensive posture pushing 480 feet (6 sec). Can you imagine?!

The worst though was the long hassle i had to go through after sliding into a red light camera'd intersection at 23kmph (it told me right on the frikkin photo-ticket!) at 5am on a Sunday on black ice covered roads despite my low speed and highend winter tires (it was exceptionally bad that day, drizzled rain all night at +1 and then -5 in the morning with light snow on top). I slid literally cm's over the line, backed up and went and waited at the empty intersection, and then proceeded. Yet still had to go to court and have a prosecuter literally berate me, then deal with that crazy bald nazi traffic judge the city has, before they heard my side and let me off. No cop would have EVER given me a ticket in that circumstance, and me trying to stop where i otherwise should have kept going due to severe weather was dangerous to both my life and my that of my family.





Besides which, there are a lot of crimes that could be cracked down on with cameras - why not just put them everywhere? Why not have cameras in every home to make sure no one is growing pot or soliciting prostitutes? Why not have them on every street corner and in every class room? I mean police can't be everywhere, right? Imagine how much EASIER it would be for them?


I don't want to get rid of them outright though, i just think the city does need to be more responsible in regards to issues surrounding them or face consequences at some point.




Claeren.

[Eddie Bronze]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I know, and what is unfortunate, is the morons hammering on their breaks are not to blame for the accidents that occur. I guess people shouldn't be tailgating either, but irrational fear of getting a red light ticket is ridiculous. I can see why people have it, but the have to be better educated than that.

It's all fine and well to say they need to be better educated but how do they get that education? The police put out these red light cameras and not a word is said to let people know the rules regarding them. I don't ever remember anything being said other than that there were a whole lot more red light cameras being installed. I've personally never slammed on the breaks to avoid a ticket as I figured I could argue it and beat it, whether you were concerned with how close the guy was behind you or how close you were to the intersection when the yellow came on. But now that this report has come out they are actually starting to talk about it and let people know how it works. Would have made a lot more sense to do this when they started but that may have cut down on the $2.1m they took out of Calgarians pockets last year.

[Flames in 07]

In related news, intersection tbone accidents are way down, and accidents that involve injuries are down as well.

I think the cameras have changed the anture of accidents, and to be fair they are less damaging accidents.

As for it being a cash cow, I'll take any idiot tax anyway I can get it. Other ways to fund the system means less burden for those who live right.

[nieuwy-89]

Originally Posted by Claeren

I don't want to get rid of them outright though, i just think the city does need to be more responsible in regards to issues surrounding them or face consequences at some point.

Claeren.

Good post - good points. Red light cameras aren't perfect, but the data I've seen shows that they reduce deaths and serious injuries.

It is a fairly new technology, and drivers/traffic engineers/police/courts are all still adjusting and learning how to deal with them.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Eddie Bronze

It's all fine and well to say they need to be better educated but how do they get that education? The police put out these red light cameras and not a word is said to let people know the rules regarding them. I don't ever remember anything being said other than that there were a whole lot more red light cameras being installed. I've personally never slammed on the breaks to avoid a ticket as I figured I could argue it and beat it, whether you were concerned with how close the guy was behind you or how close you were to the intersection when the yellow came on. But now that this report has come out they are actually starting to talk about it and let people know how it works. Would have made a lot more sense to do this when they started but that may have cut down on the $2.1m they took out of Calgarians pockets last year.

But the laws at these intersections are no different than the laws at any old traffic light enforced intersections. Growing up and getting our licenses should have been enough education for all of us.

[Doctordestiny]

Hows do these red light cameras work when you're in or close to the intersection? When does the camera take a photo?

If I'm past the intersection when the light turns red, am I clear and therefore safe? Does the camera take the photo only when I'm in the intersection when the light turns red?

I get nervous near these things because I don't know when the photo is taken. I've put on my brakes to avoid entering the intersection because I don't know when the photo is taken. I also speed up when close or in the intersection to get out before the photo gets taken.

????

[Eddie Bronze]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

But the laws at these intersections are no different than the laws at any old traffic light enforced intersections. Growing up and getting our licenses should have been enough education for all of us.

People are under the assumption if you get caught in the intersection with the light red that you are getting a ticket. Sounds like a reasonable assumption to me. That's not the case though, the light has to have changed to red before you enter the intersection, but the public was never informed of it. The fact they made specific mention of this means it is an issue that needs to be resolved.

See what doctordestiny is saying directly above me, people don't know and don't want to get screwed and I certainly can't answer his question. The specifics of the entire thing is screwing with peoples heads.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I think red light cameras should be non-existent unless they have one of those "flashing signs" about 500m from the intersection. It's a pretty simple concept and if you get a ticket because you decide to try and run the light after being warned 500m in advance you're a moron.

I agree the counters probably don't help too much, they have them in edmonton, they're beneficial to me but far too often i see people just hammer it at like 3 or 4 seconds to beat the light.

Agreed on both points. There should be the flashing lights before a red light camera. As far as I'm concerned, any intersection that has at least one road with a speed limit above 60 should have the flashing yellows and a red light camera. It truly would be a stupid person tax.

Too many times I've been approaching an intersection with the flashing yellow lights and I start to slow down, when the guy behind me will change lanes and gun it. Give people like that a ticket. But just stop with the BS cash cow ones like the camera on Mcleod Tr. southbound at 13th ave. That is the only camera I've ever received a ticket from.
Rush hour traffic, I'm tailgating a 5 ton cube truck. I can't see the light and am just keeping pace with traffic. I was probably going 30 kph through the intersection. BS, IMO.
Yeah, yeah... Don't tailgate. Of course. Except in rush hour traffic, as already mentioned in this thread, you have to follow closer.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

Hows do these red light cameras work when you're in or close to the intersection? When does the camera take a photo?

If I'm past the intersection when the light turns red, am I clear and therefore safe? Does the camera take the photo only when I'm in the intersection when the light turns red?

I get nervous near these things because I don't know when the photo is taken. I've put on my brakes to avoid entering the intersection because I don't know when the photo is taken. I also speed up when close or in the intersection to get out before the photo gets taken.

????

There are actually two photos taken in very quick succession.

The first photo is of your car/plate as the rear of your car crosses the 'stop line' of the intersection while the light is read.

The second photo is of your car/plate as the rear of your car exits the intersection, in essence crossing the oncoming traffics 'stop line'.

So you have each pic showing your car, each with a red light above your car, both showing the time, your speed, etc.

You have more time then you think because you have to enter on the red light. On the otherhand, 1/100th of a second after the light turns red is enough even when traveling at 80kmph and regardless of what else is going on at the intersection.


And as has been said, it is not the way it is done that is the problem - it is that the same people most likely to be a danger on the road at a red light camera'd intersection (along with most everyone else) are the same people that don't know how it works.



Claeren.

[Eddie Bronze]

Originally Posted by Claeren

it is that the same people most likely to be a danger on the road at a red light camera'd intersection (along with most everyone else) are the same people that don't know how it works.



Claeren.

Clae,
I didn't know how it worked and I've never caused an accident, intersection or otherwise, in my life. Common sense should prevail over panic reactions and I think that's the one thing you cannot account for. Some people are just plain bad drivers. Take for instance the old lady who came to a dead stop and blocked me in a merge lane yesterday, I could have rung her neck!

The fact that not every yellow light lasts the same amount of time makes it hard for people to know how much time they have as well. It's like all us hockey fans complaining about officiating or suspensions when we say "where is the consistency, how does the player know what he can and can't do?" Same thing with yellow lights, how do I know how long I have before it changes to red? Some of them give what seems like an eternity and others seem to give less than a couple seconds.