"Anti-US"

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

America is always sticking their nose in other countries problems and not taking care of their own.

The biggest problem of the 20th century was that America was not sticking their nose in world problems deep enough or quickly enough.

Originally Posted by RedMan12

America has trillions of dollars to spend on war but they can't feed their own poor.

What a silly statement. Its silly when you think that if America was not spending money on war, peace would thrive. Its laughable when the OSN, mainstream media, infantile internet philosphers call for Isreal to leave Lebanon in order to "establish peace". There will be no peace in the Middle East until terrorist groups with huge domestic and international support will have only one goal in mind - destruction of Israel.

As for feeding their "own poor" - in very few places in the world have the poor a better chance to feed themselves. Again it laughable to blame "America" if they cannot do so.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

I have lived in America for 10 years and have seen way worse poverty then in Canada.

Have you visited many native reserves in Canada?

Us Canadians have no right calling out the presence of poverty in the US when the conditions on many reserves would embarrass 3rd-world despots.

[badnarik]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

America is always sticking their nose in other countries problems and not taking care of their own.

America has trillions of dollars to spend on war but they can't feed their own poor.

just from personal observation of fat people getting free groceries, i would render a guess that we have the fattest poor people on earth. i think it has something to do with hawaiian punch.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by firebug

Have you visited many native reserves in Canada?

Us Canadians have no right calling out the presence of poverty in the US when the conditions on many reserves would embarrass 3rd-world despots.

Whoa, dude, there is NO comparison between the poverty in the United States and native resevers in Canada. Native reserves are the Ritz Charlton compared to some of the ghettos in the United States. Man, some of the ghettos are like bombed out war zones. It's very scary and depressing at the same time. I could take you to parts of Chicago and Detroit that would make your blood curdle. A trip to East St. Louis would leave you in a state of shock. It is beyond the cultural comprehension of Canadians, until Canadians see it first hand.

To comment on the "anti-American" comments. I am always criticized as being anti-American, which has made me shake my head. I choose to live here, complete my civic duty in ways most citizens would not, and have married one her citizens. I have a commitment to this country and wish the best for it. I have a love for the country, but not as my own. I think it is this factor that makes it easier to to be critical. Your first love is always your strongest and most emotional, so my love for Alberta (notice I did not say Canada) will always be the strongest. That will always be "home" and will always be my point of reference. It is this point of reference that is important to keep in mind when you discuss anti-Americanism.

My problem with America is that it was the greatest country on the planet, had some of the greatest people, and had the engine that drove the world. The key word there is "was". Things have changed. America has become complacent, fat and lazy. America has been on vacation for 30 years and has watched the rest of the world catch-up and pass her by in many ways. This is what makes me saddened and angry.

America has the ability to be the best. They have the ability to be the benevolent entity which provides that shining example that people around the world looked to with envy. America, with her economic might, could easily make countries conform to a world standard through peaceful means. She could lead in that regard, yet she chooses to plunder the under-developed and take advantage of the weak. America could set the example for the world to follow in the areas of progressiveness and forward thinking, yet the country is regressing and handing opportunity to other nations to do the forward thinking for her. America should be the leader in proving democracy functions AND works, yet the country is gripped by a malaise that only sees 1 in every 3 Americans go to the polls. America has the ability to educate every single one of its citizens to a standard untouchable by the rest of the world, but she chooses to allow her citizens to remain poorly educated and grossly uninformed. America has the assets to provide the best medical system on the planet for her citizens, but instead turns it into a business controlled by corporate greed and Washington lobbiests. America has the ability to wipe out poverty and hunger with in her borders, yet she chooses to cow-tow to the uber rich and screw the poor. America has everything, yet chooses to squander it. America could be the greatest and most benevolent country in the world, but instead she chooses to be a bully and export death.

People love to see the underdog achieve greatness. They love to see the down trodden come from nowhere to achieve greatness. What they don't like is when greatness is achieved and that once down trodden soul forgets where they came from, forgets what motivated them to pull themselves from the gutter in the first place. America has forgotten what brought her to where she is. She has forgotten her roots and the bitter taste of oppression she hated. Most importantly, she has forgotten that with great power comes greater responsibility.

My anti-American comments come from this point of reference. I believe that America SHOULD be the greatest country in the world, because of all it has. I believe that America should be striving to make the world a better place through benevolent means, not through militaristic endevours. I believe that America should be all about her citizens (all of them) and not just the top 1%. The fact that America has so much, and has the potential to do so much good, but instead chooses to do otherwise, makes me critical and cynical of her actions. It is this basic premise that makes it difficult to join the pom pom wavers when America encourages oppression rather than benevolence. It is a choice, and it is the wrong choice because it does nothing to enrich the lives of us all. This is why I continue to be a critic of America. This is why I expect all to remain critical of America.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

American soilders often go out of their way to loot, rape and murder innocent civialians caught in the cross fire of war.

I call bull****. Often? You're going to have to prove that it is far from a remote occurrance.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

My anti-American comments come from this point of reference. I believe that America SHOULD be the greatest country in the world, because of all it has. I believe that America should be striving to make the world a better place through benevolent means, not through militaristic endevours. I believe that America should be all about her citizens (all of them) and not just the top 1%. The fact that America has so much, and has the potential to do so much good, but instead chooses to do otherwise, makes me critical and cynical of her actions. It is this basic premise that makes it difficult to join the pom pom wavers when America encourages oppression rather than benevolence. It is a choice, and it is the wrong choice because it does nothing to enrich the lives of us all. This is why I continue to be a critic of America. This is why I expect all to remain critical of America.

I'll agree with most of what you said. America has the capacity to do a lot of social good, but doesn't have the economic will to do so. America is all about capitalism and making money. That greed will rarely allow for the things you say - tremendous healthcare, education, etc - and that is a tremendous shame.

That said, most of your posts never come close to that amount of positive feeling for the US. You're critical in each and ever post, never saying ANYTHING good about the US. This is where the anti-US label comes from, whether it's deserved or not (as can be shown by the post above).

[Lombogirl]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Whoa, dude, there is NO comparison between the poverty in the United States and native resevers in Canada. Native reserves are the Ritz Charlton compared to some of the ghettos in the United States. Man, some of the ghettos are like bombed out war zones. It's very scary and depressing at the same time. I could take you to parts of Chicago and Detroit that would make your blood curdle. A trip to East St. Louis would leave you in a state of shock. It is beyond the cultural comprehension of Canadians, until Canadians see it first hand.

Have you also visited native reserves across Canada?

There really isn't a point to arguing which country has the poorest poor. Every country has very rich and very poor people. The divide is definately greater in some countries (US for sure), but it still exists everywhere you go. Spending billions (or trillions) of dollars on poverty-stricken areas in the country instead of national defence isn't going to solve every problem either.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

If you call health care paying it yourself then fine.

American soilders often go out of their way to loot, rape and murder innocent civialians caught in the cross fire of war.

America does spend way too much on militay and not enough on other important needs like healthcare and education.

I really don't understand the first part. It would cost the US trillions upon trillions to have a public health care system like we have here in Canada. Remember, then have approx. 270 million people more then we do.

American soldiers going out of their way to loot, rape and murder innocent civilians(you make it seem like they all do) has not direct comparison to how much money the US spends on their military. The UN also has troops that rape innocent civilians.

The US does not have to cut back their military funding in order to pay for healthcare and education. Like I've said before, there is a lot of other needless pork that can be cut from the budget before military funding comes to the list.

If used properly, the military can be a great system. A lot of people can gain superior knowledge from the many different branches that in turn will have a positive affect on the civilian world.

[Table 5]

Lombogirl, trust us american residents on this one. America has some places that would make a bombed-out Afghanistan neighborhood look palatable.

There is absoutely nothing in any western country that compares to some of these hell holes. My grandma himself lives in an area of Detroit that has been bascially gutted by fire for 40 years now and nobody has done jack **** about it....

[Azure]

Most of America's wars have been about economics or power but they often put up a front or other excuses. Not about expelling evil from the world. That's the front they like to use.

Right....

American Revolution: American colonies are getting to harshly taxed by England so they revolt and make their own country. They claim its for religious freedom and all men are equal. Most American revolutionairies were slave owners.

So? All men are born equal, and all men should have religious freedom. Whats your point?

Civil War: If the south recieded textile industry in the north would fail because the south would control all the cotton. 3 or 4 years after the war is started the North claims they are freeing the slaves and that is the cause of war.

And I thought the civil war was fought over state rights....

World War II: America refuised to send troops to aid the allies. America cuts off trade with Japan. Japan feels they have 3 years they can survive without trading with America and decide war is the only answer. After bombing Pearl Harbor America decides its ok to enter WWII.

The US practiced a theory called isolation, something many people still agree with. But through a certain program I can't remember the name now, the US heavily supplied the allies with the resources needed to keep the war going. Lend lease or something?

Vietnam: America is afraid if Vietnam falls to Connunism that it will create a Domino effect and more countries would become Communist. America would no longer be the world power if most countries fell to connunism.

Fair enough...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Lombogirl

Have you also visited native reserves across Canada?

I have driven across Canada twice, although I can't say that native reserves were high on my list of attractions to take in. I have also driven across the United States four times. I have visited 41 of 50 States and 9 of 10 provinces, so I have a pretty good point of reference to speak from thank you very much. What I have seen in Canada pales in comparison to anything I have seen in the United States. When my wife, an American who spent almost a decade working with disadvantaged students of color, moved to Calgary she wanted me to take her to the worst parts of Calgary for a point of reference. When I drove her through Dover, Forest Lawn and Bowness she thought she was in middle class America (which is a valid comparison). We have no slums in comparison to what America has. When she went for a trip to see Waterton and Pincher Creek she had to go through Brocket and see the reserve there. Again, she said that was nothing compared to what she was working with. When we moved to the States she showed me the side of things that I did not know existed. It is shocking. But there is no use in telling anyone about it, as they would never believe it. The only way for anyone to believe it is to have them see it for themselves. If you chose to do it, be warned. Prepare yourself for a mind altering experience.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

That said, most of your posts never come close to that amount of positive feeling for the US. You're critical in each and ever post, never saying ANYTHING good about the US. This is where the anti-US label comes from, whether it's deserved or not (as can be shown by the post above).

That's okay, I'm also a hard-ass when it comes to the Flames too. While everyone is waving their pom poms thinking how great things are I am still maintaining a skeptical eye and seeing the chinks in the armor. It's part of who I am. I am extremely critical and have high expectations. When those expectations are not met I speak my mind. And I justify my comments as well. There is a major difference between myself and most.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

American soilders often go out of their way to loot, rape and murder innocent civialians caught in the cross fire of war.

America does spend way too much on militay and not enough on other important needs like healthcare and education.

This is a silly statement, please show me standing orders or proof that American soldiers go out of thier way to rape, murder or loot. It happens as it happens with every war, but it also happens with every military in the world.

If anything and if you compare records, The American army fights with far more compassion, and with far more gentleness towards civilian populations then any nationstate in the history of warfare, and they have lost wars or suffered mass casualties due to thier aversion to wholesale slaughter that other nations are willing to do.

However if you put any young man in a extreme situation like war, some are going to rise above and some are going to snap and do stuff like your mentioning. However if it was something that was consistant, or winked at you wouldn't see court martials and investigations, you would see medal ceremonies and glowing pats on the back. I actually find your first statement to be really insulting.

On the second statement, do they spend a lot on thier military? Of course they do, but sadly when your considered a superpower, and your the anchor in alliances like Nato where the accepted doctrine is that your going to have to suffer the brunt of the casualties, and bear the lionshare of any war costs, then you spend a lot on readiness. There's no denying that there health care system is to some extent broken, however I would put it on the same level of brokeness of the Canadian system, the difference is that the people that use it have to accept some of the costs directly, while in the Canadian system, we still accept a lot of the costs through taxation, we just don't balance that share by paying up front.

[Lombogirl]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Lombogirl, trust us american residents on this one. America has some places that would make a bombed-out Afghanistan neighborhood look palatable.

There is absoutely nothing in any western country that compares to some of these hell holes. My grandma himself lives in an area of Detroit that has been bascially gutted by fire for 40 years now and nobody has done jack **** about it....

Believe me, I am not arguing that Canada has more poor areas than the US. My question regarding the native reserves to Lanny was merely that - a question. I myself have not visited native reserves, which was why I asked. All I know is what I have heard, and it ain't pretty.

Driving across Canada and hitting all the provinces does not mean anything. They don't exactly build highways that go through poverty stricken areas in Canada or the US. I have driven across Canada and the northern states, and the only really rough part I saw was in Buffalo, after many very wrong turns. It was a huge wakeup call, and you would have to drag me out of that car by my hair because I was seriously scared.

Anyway, the point of my original post was that you can't just say the US sucks as a nation because they have poor people, and should look after that before funding national defence.

[RedMan12]

Originally Posted by firebug

Have you visited many native reserves in Canada?

Us Canadians have no right calling out the presence of poverty in the US when the conditions on many reserves would embarrass 3rd-world despots.

Have you every visited a native reserve in the US?

I have been to several reserves in the US and Canada. I would rather walk throught a reserve then a real ghetto in Florida and NJ, both places where I lived. The reserve's are poverty stricken but nowhere as bad as a real american crack street.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

Most of America's wars have been about economics or power but they often put up a front or other excuses. Not about expelling evil from the world. That's the front they like to use.

Really now, so fighting Hitler and losing nearly a generation of thier young men was about economics and power. How about Korea? WW1? Vietnam was a war to support a corrupt regime, however it came about because they had pledged support to this regime, they already had power and influence in the area, and it became a key tipping point in the American's losing more then men, equipment and money in the region.

I think you have it backwards, with many wars, the American's went in with a loftier ambition, or because they had been attacked first. The power economically and politically that they gained was a result of going to war, not a precurser too.

Originally Posted by RedMan12

American Revolution: American colonies are getting to harshly taxed by England so they revolt and make their own country. They claim its for religious freedom and all men are equal. Most American revolutionairies were slave owners.

I see, so the desire to be free from rule from a foreign state and a system of unfair taxation that the British were using to pay for thier wars elsewhere was a bad thing. Wow. The British government was completely content to rape its colonies, and enforce thier rule of law by the gun. See the Boston Massacre.

Originally Posted by RedMan12

Civil War: If the south recieded textile industry in the north would fail because the south would control all the cotton. 3 or 4 years after the war is started the North claims they are freeing the slaves and that is the cause of war.

Crap, the major cause of the war was the election of Lincoln which ended southern control of the U.S. Government and his intention to stop the expansion of slavery. Lincoln might not have ended slavery, but he was certainly putting the mechanics in place to stop it. the South hated losing control of the capital, and didn't want to see the end of slavery

Originally Posted by RedMan12

World War II: America refuised to send troops to aid the allies. America cuts off trade with Japan. Japan feels they have 3 years they can survive without trading with America and decide war is the only answer. After bombing Pearl Harbor America decides its ok to enter WWII.

The American's saw WWII as a European adventure, and didn't want to send thier boys to die in Europe so soon after the end of WWII. they had withdrawn from the world and attempted to isolate thier economy so they wouldn't be at the mercy of Europe. In no way did the start of WWII threaten the continental United States, and they were under no treaty obligations to join. They supplied the British with planes and weapons through.

In fact if the Japanese had not pulled the American's into WWII, the states would probably have been a far richer and more powerful nation now due to the fact that up until 1941 they continued to do business with all of the sides of the war. America didn't cut off trade of Oil and scrap metal and freeze Japanese assets until Japan invaded French Ido China in 41.

from the tone of your comment you make it sound like the bombing of pearl harbour was the fault of the American's. Of course it was ok for the American's to enter WWII after a undeclared start of a war against them.

Read up on the neutrality act of 1935.

Originally Posted by RedMan12

Vietnam: America is afraid if Vietnam falls to Connunism that it will create a Domino effect and more countries would become Communist. America would no longer be the world power if most countries fell to connunism.

Of course, but I think you have to look at the overall world landscape at the time. The Soviet Union was the big bad, they outnumbered the American's by as little as 3-1 in conventional arms, had since WWII held countries in Europe in an iron grip. Communism had also seen aggressive moves by other communist states. So at that time, the domino effect was a reality that wouldn't be disproven until the early 90's. If America didn't come to the aid of S Vietnam as they had with S Korea, they would have lost tremendous faith in the region, and would have given the North Vietnam government and the Chinese and Russians tremendous power in the region. The other fear is that it would have lead to the loss of both Japan and Australia in the long run.

It was a stupid war, but the American's had no choice but to fight it. The problem was that Vietnam was a war of half assed measures and stupid decisions on a national level.

Originally Posted by RedMan12

Iraq: Irag has Weapons Mass Destruction or alot of oil. America still hasn't found the first one.

And will never see the benefits of the second one. It would have been cheaper to enter into the Oil for Food program and fatten up Saddam for cheap Oil.

[Bingo]

I think it's important to see the distinction between being anti-US and being anti-any one initiative, program, or world conflict.

And sadly only the person talking knows inside themselves where they sit (or others that have seen a very long standard in the same direction).

I have serious issues with many US policies and how they've handled things in the world, but I also see and can understand the tough decisions needed to be made and how not every "plan" becomes a reality.

if you rail against everything the country does on the world stage you are likely anti-American.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Lombogirl

Driving across Canada and hitting all the provinces does not mean anything. They don't exactly build highways that go through poverty stricken areas in Canada or the US.

Actually, yes they do. Major roadways normally go through the poor sections of town and are far away fro there the "rich folks" live. The Americans are pretty creative for the most part though, and do build their road systems into recesses and put up walls so you don't see a lot of stuff. Their interstate system is lined with trees to at as a sound barrier and to beautify the project. They're smart. But there are sectiosn that are just damn obvious. Drive through New Orleans, East St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, etc. and you can't help but see what I am refering to.

[flamesfever]

Glad to see your other side Lanny, and appreciate your input CaptainCrunch.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Really now, so fighting Hitler and losing nearly a generation of thier young men was about economics and power. How about Korea? WW1? Vietnam was a war to support a corrupt regime, however it came about because they had pledged support to this regime, they already had power and influence in the area, and it became a key tipping point in the American's losing more then men, equipment and money in the region.

Some might argue that the US entered WWII to prevent German hegemony over Europe, where instead the US would prefer a balance of power between England, France, Germany... leaving the US as sole-hegemony. In Korea the US was fighting its ideological war with Communism, not because they love all South Korean peoples. Vietnam wasn't to 'support a corrupt regime', they installed the regime, it was to support an American satellite state. I don't think the US habitually engages in war to help the downtrodden and oppressed, but rather for their own geo-political goals and objectives that may, or may not, actually help people.

I think you have it backwards, with many wars, the American's went in with a loftier ambition, or because they had been attacked first. The power economically and politically that they gained was a result of going to war, not a precurser too.

How many times has the US been 'attacked first'? WWII? Are you arguing that the US 'accidentally' fell into its position of supreme power through a series of unrelated events and wars? That seems implausible.

I see, so the desire to be free from rule from a foreign state and a system of unfair taxation that the British were using to pay for thier wars elsewhere was a bad thing. Wow. The British government was completely content to rape its colonies, and enforce thier rule of law by the gun. See the Boston Massacre.

Well, it wasn't 'unfair taxation', it was taxation. US merchants were making money hand over fist and becoming extremely powerful. They identified a huge drain on their finances (taxes) and cleverly founded the seed of revolution for their own gain. The British 'raped' their colonies? From what I recall millions of them moved to these colonies, and were still British citizens. The British invested millions of pounds into assets, industry, transportation, etc. I don't recall the US paying any of that back... are we thinking of Mel Gibson's The Patriot version of the US Revolution?

The American's saw WWII as a European adventure, and didn't want to send thier boys to die in Europe so soon after the end of WWII. they had withdrawn from the world and attempted to isolate thier economy so they wouldn't be at the mercy of Europe. In no way did the start of WWII threaten the continental United States, and they were under no treaty obligations to join. They supplied the British with planes and weapons through.

Well... a Germany that dominates Europe was obviously bad for the US. They didn't need a massive Western competitor. But I'm sure the US administrations couldn't see that for beans, and things just magically fell into place for US hegemony.