USA looks towards Alberta's oil sands

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Reggie Dunlop@Sep 7 2004, 04:07 PM
Awesome.

When does the American Anschluss begin?

Well, it was only 70 years ago that the U.S. scrapped it's final annexation of Canada plan, so I'm sure those old contingency plans are still available.

[Daradon]

The American's want oil? This is news?

I especially liked this quote... [b]'But the engineers and fortune seekers who played with it — boiling, spinning and treating it with chemicals — succeeded mostly in blowing themselves up or going bankrupt, or both.'[b]

LOL!

I am of the same mind that says if they want our oil so badly, we should pay hardball or at least stick up for ourselves. Drop the softwood tariffs and open the border to the beef. I mean, the WTO has decided against the U.S. twice on the softwood deal and they still have their tariffs on. More U.S. hypocracy, they only follow the rules (or inforce them) when suits them.

Till you play nice, no oil for you! (Or no ADDITIONAL oil I suppose)

[Displaced Flames fan]

Plenty of similarly difficult to extract oil reserves in the US. Despite Lanny's ominous warning, I don't think you have to start building your bomb shelters quite yet.

I agree that the soft wood tarrifs should be gone...my wife's family is supported wholly by the Canadian timber industry...but to be honest, you can't find American lumber where I live. If the tarrifs were designed to help the American lumber industry...

1. It's not working
2. They're not hurting Canadian lumber exports as much as you guys might think.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz+Sep 8 2004, 02:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bring_Back_Shantz @ Sep 8 2004, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-troutman@Sep 7 2004, 11:10 AM
Maybe the US will try to liberate us from our Dictator.

I was just gonna say that.

If I ever hear:
"We have proof that Canada is harbouring Terrorists, and is producing weapons of mass destruction"

Or

"Paul Martin is a tyrant who is a danger to the entire world"

I'm moving to Japan. [/b][/quote]
I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist, so I'm way ahead of you!

[Skyceman]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 7 2004, 10:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 7 2004, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Skyceman@Sep 7 2004, 04:08 PM
A few weeks ago Dick Chenney was up in Fort McMurray surveying the area. Supposedly, from their observations, Saudi Arabia may not be as rich oilwise as was orginally thought hence the interest here now.

I'm just guessing but I think if Dick Cheney were in Fort McMurray a few weeks ago someone probably would have noticed.

Secondly, he flies around in a big ole blue and white plane which is pretty conspicuous.

Third, he probably hires people for that kind of reconnaissance.

Fourth, when does the bombing start?

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Seeing as how my "info" is being brought into question.

Only thing I will say is that my wife passed the knowledge onto me and and based on her source I believe he was here.

[Thunderball]

I for one wouldn't be too heartbroken if the Americans liberated Alberta from Canada.

Seriously, no kidding they want our Oil and Gas... and they're gonna pay top dollar for it like they always had... no conspiracies here, sorry. Hell, 1/2 the Alberta Oilpatch is owned by Americans and 100 000 Calgarians are American. Think they'd attack their own people?? dream on.

[Gugstanley]

Isn't Edmonton the dumping grounds for Canada's nuclear waste?

One only needs to read this off topic forum to see how western Canada is being opressed. I have already forwarded the links to Bush!!! You will be freed

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Sep 7 2004, 11:12 PM
Plenty of similarly difficult to extract oil reserves in the US. Despite Lanny's ominous warning, I don't think you have to start building your bomb shelters quite yet.

I agree that the soft wood tarrifs should be gone...my wife's family is supported wholly by the Canadian timber industry...but to be honest, you can't find American lumber where I live. If the tarrifs were designed to help the American lumber industry...

1. It's not working
2. They're not hurting Canadian lumber exports as much as you guys might think.

In response to number two, I don't know how much 'you think that I think' the tariffs are hurting us but I do know several people who were employed in forestry in BC who temporarily or permanently lost the jobs becuase of lower demand because of the tariffs. I can only imagine that the factories got it even worse.

It doesn't matter HOW much it's hurting. If it's unfair and illegal and it's hurting at all, it shouldn't be done. That would be like saying, 'oh grow up, I only paralysed ya, I coulda killed ya.'

[Reaper]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Sep 7 2004, 09:59 PM
I for one wouldn't be too heartbroken if the Americans liberated Alberta from Canada.

I would be.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Daradon@Sep 8 2004, 08:18 PM

In response to number two, I don't know how much 'you think that I think' the tariffs are hurting us but I do know several people who were employed in forestry in BC who temporarily or permanently lost the jobs becuase of lower demand because of the tariffs. I can only imagine that the factories got it even worse.

It doesn't matter HOW much it's hurting. If it's unfair and illegal and it's hurting at all, it shouldn't be done. That would be like saying, 'oh grow up, I only paralysed ya, I coulda killed ya.'

Yeah, I know someone too...my brother-in-law.

Point is...if Canadian lumber isn't being imported into this country where the hell is all the American lumber...because I honestly see very, very little of it.

I think the demand for lumber has risen enough to make those tarrifs a lot less effective than they were meant to be...that's my point.

And did you miss the part where I said I disagreed compeletely with the tariffs? I also said it the day they went into effect on this board....don't know if you were around then.

[Looger]

this oil thingy will only be around for 20 or so more years, i say sell all that we can.

the alberta tarsands are unique in north america for their harvestability without extreme environmental impact - as in alaska's biggest reserves being tapped would mess with the major caribou migration, offshore has issues, etc. - tarsands is basically like open-pit mining.

some point in the near future i believe there will be big enough developments in nano-technology to produce fuel from garbage by enough human-controlled mass-scale (currently) naturally occuring mini-processes or some such insanity.

sell all the oil we can and build that silk cable to space, the new silk road.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Skyceman+Sep 8 2004, 03:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Skyceman @ Sep 8 2004, 03:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I'm just guessing but I think if Dick Cheney were in Fort McMurray a few weeks ago someone probably would have noticed.

Secondly, he flies around in a big ole blue and white plane which is pretty conspicuous.

Third, he probably hires people for that kind of reconnaissance.

Fourth, when does the bombing start?

Cowperson

Seeing as how my "info" is being brought into question.

Only thing I will say is that my wife passed the knowledge onto me and and based on her source I believe he was here. [/b][/quote]
I believe yourself and your wife are relating accurately what you've heard Skyceman. No problem there.

I'm calling baloney on your source. I don't believe it for a second.

We can agree to disagree.

Cowperson

[Skyceman]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 8 2004, 08:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 8 2004, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Seeing as how my "info" is being brought into question.

Only thing I will say is that my wife passed the knowledge onto me and and based on her source I believe he was here.

I believe yourself and your wife are relating accurately what you've heard Skyceman. No problem there.

I'm calling baloney on your source. I don't believe it for a second.

We can agree to disagree.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Hehe

Fair enough Cow

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Skyceman+Sep 9 2004, 03:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Skyceman @ Sep 9 2004, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I believe yourself and your wife are relating accurately what you've heard Skyceman. No problem there.

I'm calling baloney on your source. I don't believe it for a second.

We can agree to disagree.

Cowperson

Hehe

Fair enough Cow [/b][/quote]
Actually, if you want to have a little fun, name the day or days he was in Fort McMurray. I'm not calling you out or anything like that but you might actually be able to review his schedule and deduce if he was or wasn't.

Fair? We could satisfy our curiousity. Maybe. Call it an intellectual exercise. My interest is piqued.

Cowperson

[Looger]

isn't cheney busy blowing explosives up in his basement all night, waking the neighbours (seriously...) ?

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Sep 9 2004, 02:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Sep 9 2004, 02:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Daradon@Sep 8 2004, 08:18 PM

In response to number two, I don't know how much 'you think that I think' the tariffs are hurting us but I do know several people who were employed in forestry in BC who temporarily or permanently lost the jobs becuase of lower demand because of the tariffs. I can only imagine that the factories got it even worse.

It doesn't matter HOW much it's hurting. If it's unfair and illegal and it's hurting at all, it shouldn't be done. That would be like saying, 'oh grow up, I only paralysed ya, I coulda killed ya.'

Yeah, I know someone too...my brother-in-law.

Point is...if Canadian lumber isn't being imported into this country where the hell is all the American lumber...because I honestly see very, very little of it.

I think the demand for lumber has risen enough to make those tarrifs a lot less effective than they were meant to be...that's my point.

And did you miss the part where I said I disagreed compeletely with the tariffs? I also said it the day they went into effect on this board....don't know if you were around then. [/b][/quote]
No I didn't miss your point at all, I was just responding to the 'it's not as bad as you think' remark. I know you're a level headed guy. Just had a point on that last comment. It shouldn't hurt AT ALL. It's not like our industries are being hurt by better competition, their being hurt by illegal trade practices.

It's just one of those things that rubs people the wrong way in this country because the U.S. is the first to cry foul or dictate policy when things don't go their way. CMT (a country music channel here) was originally supposed to show just Canadian music, but the U.S. said that was unfair trade practices because their artists weren't getting exposure. Threatnend punative tariffs if American artists weren't shown.

Why did we decriminalise marijuana instead of outright legalizing it? Because the U.S. drug czar threatened us because of the U.S.'s insane (and highly ineffective) war on drugs and we had to make a softer law. Not necessarily saying we SHOULD legalize marijuana, my preference has nothing to do with the argument, I'll just be damned if another country will dictate our domestic policy.

This are just a few of the examples. So when the tables are turned and the U.S. is found in the wrong by the WTO and STILL won't do anything about it, it's not so much the issue of just softwood, but the issue of policy bullying that drives us Canucks up a wall.

If the U.S. treats it's largest trading partner and 'closest ally' (well at least before the Bush jr. years) like this, then is it really any wonder why there is such strong anti-U.S. sentiment? (Didn't think this was the way the thread was going, but so be it) People don't just 'hate the rich country, free country, powerful country' like some leaders would have you believe. It's not just some sort of inferiority complex. There are real issues here, from stuff that happens to us here in Canada, to stuff that happens to the citizens in the middle east.

I hope you can understand this.

[Lurch]

I think it is important that Canada leverage US dependance on oil into fair trade on other fronts b/c the US is sure not going to just decide to play by the book for the benefit of Canada. Further, I think it's time for Canada to begin unhitching our wagon from the US to a degree. It's just plain dumb to be so dependant on a single trading partner, especially one that holds about 10 cards for every one we hold.

Canada's position personally frightens me right now. The US is a big economy that will be forced to undergo a huge transition over the next 20 years as manufacturing, tech and even some service jobs continue to migrate to areas like China and India. The usual response to these pressures (from pretty much all governments everywhere) is to become more protectionist, and you are definitely seeing the US making this move. Canada is going to face growing pressure from US lobbyists trying to restrict access to their markets and the current disputes are just the start, IMO. It's pretty simple really - if a US Senator thinks he can save 1 US job at the cost of 10 Canadian jobs, its easy to guess which way the vote goes, and you can't blame the Senator (or gov't) for doing their job. In an environment where the US continues to leak jobs to the developing world (and this is pretty much unavoidable I think) we need to change our gameplan.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Lurch@Sep 9 2004, 02:57 PM
I think it is important that Canada leverage US dependance on oil into fair trade on other fronts b/c the US is sure not going to just decide to play by the book for the benefit of Canada. Further, I think it's time for Canada to begin unhitching our wagon from the US to a degree. It's just plain dumb to be so dependant on a single trading partner, especially one that holds about 10 cards for every one we hold.

Canada's position personally frightens me right now. The US is a big economy that will be forced to undergo a huge transition over the next 20 years as manufacturing, tech and even some service jobs continue to migrate to areas like China and India. The usual response to these pressures (from pretty much all governments everywhere) is to become more protectionist, and you are definitely seeing the US making this move. Canada is going to face growing pressure from US lobbyists trying to restrict access to their markets and the current disputes are just the start, IMO. It's pretty simple really - if a US Senator thinks he can save 1 US job at the cost of 10 Canadian jobs, its easy to guess which way the vote goes, and you can't blame the Senator (or gov't) for doing their job. In an environment where the US continues to leak jobs to the developing world (and this is pretty much unavoidable I think) we need to change our gameplan.

I agree about the unhitching our wagon. I think China could help in that regard enormously. It would be awsome to undercut the US say in Lumber and Beef and get their markets and watch them whine. Also the whole "in bed with" aspect of their dependency on our oil for their energy needs (in what ever ratio) is troublesome. When things start getting scarcer and we want to pull back, will they assume we're in a sort of contract, will they say we're stopping free trade and our PM is a tyrant? Water is a problem similarly. Admittedly those fears are perhaps over 20 years away. I guess by then Bush really will be gone, so maybe there's nothing to fear anyhow.

[Tron_fdc]

I was raised on a cattle farm, and my dad is the head of some cattle commision in Alberta (Not sure which one, as the whole cow thing (sorry cowperson) just had no appeal whatsoever to me). He has mentioned on many occasion that farmers, as good as they are at raising beef and growing crops, are pretty lousy businessmen. He has been pushing for over 5 years the need for diversification (similar to any business that wants to survive long term), and even after the mad cow problem it still hasn't happened. It just makes no sense having this massive glut of cattle, and not being able to pack and ship them to countries like China or Africa where the food is needed and money can be made. The main reason for this is the packers in Canada are all American owned, and do you think they're going to slaughter cattle and package them for cheap prices instead of making the huge windfall profits by selling into the US? The simple answer is build Canadian owned (or government owned) packers for this purpose, but for some reason it hasn't even been tabled.

I agree with Lurch, we need to look elsewhere especially given the current economic situation in the US. If people think this is bad, just wait until China starts devouring market share (we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg) and massive job losses in the worlds biggest economy become more common. It's only a matter of time before the NAFTA agreement gets scrapped; not because it's legal or because it expired, but because they can. I can see it now:

Canada: "Why did you tear it up?"
USA: "Because I could!!"
Canada: "We're screwed"
USA: "Not my problem"

As far as the oil sands go, we need to go forward very carefully instead of plowing into it and selling all our resources as fast as possible to our neightbours south of the border. Think long term, and by that I mean 2 generations forward. Is it worth it to make a huge amount of money this generation, and leave a mess up north for your grandkids to wallow in? I say if they want our commodity, it's on our terms at our price. No more no less.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by plett22@Sep 9 2004, 05:47 PM
I was raised on a cattle farm, and my dad is the head of some cattle commision in Alberta (Not sure which one, as the whole cow thing (sorry cowperson) just had no appeal whatsoever to me). He has mentioned on many occasion that farmers, as good as they are at raising beef and growing crops, are pretty lousy businessmen. He has been pushing for over 5 years the need for diversification (similar to any business that wants to survive long term), and even after the mad cow problem it still hasn't happened. It just makes no sense having this massive glut of cattle, and not being able to pack and ship them to countries like China or Africa where the food is needed and money can be made. The main reason for this is the packers in Canada are all American owned, and do you think they're going to slaughter cattle and package them for cheap prices instead of making the huge windfall profits by selling into the US? The simple answer is build Canadian owned (or government owned) packers for this purpose, but for some reason it hasn't even been tabled.

I agree with Lurch, we need to look elsewhere especially given the current economic situation in the US. If people think this is bad, just wait until China starts devouring market share (we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg) and massive job losses in the worlds biggest economy become more common. It's only a matter of time before the NAFTA agreement gets scrapped; not because it's legal or because it expired, but because they can. I can see it now:

Canada: "Why did you tear it up?"
USA: "Because I could!!"
Canada: "We're screwed"
USA: "Not my problem"

As far as the oil sands go, we need to go forward very carefully instead of plowing into it and selling all our resources as fast as possible to our neightbours south of the border. Think long term, and by that I mean 2 generations forward. Is it worth it to make a huge amount of money this generation, and leave a mess up north for your grandkids to wallow in? I say if they want our commodity, it's on our terms at our price. No more no less.

He has mentioned on many occasion that farmers, as good as they are at raising beef and growing crops, are pretty lousy businessmen.

There are farmers who are great businessmen too. Very sharp.

The lousy ones eventually disappear as the economics of farming force larger and larger operations . . . . and the land remains under tillage regardless. The land doesn't miss the lousy farmer at all.

Regarding cattle, I was talking to a rancher this a.m. and he was thinking the solution would be a cull of cattle eight years or older. That might mean about 500,000 cattle being killed but he thought the scene of such carnage, so familiar to Brits, would be unpalatable in Canada. The political capital ranchers have now with Canadians would be lost he said. So back to the start point.

You should ask yourself why all those millions of British cows weren't chopped up and sent to Africa either. Politically unpalatable even in those countries with starving populations. "You want to send us your corrupted meat?"

On trade, every government in the last 40 years has talked about getting Canadian businessmen to have less dependence on the USA. Instead, about 82% of our exports currently go to the USA, as high as its ever been.

It's because its the easiest, fattest option, a classic example of money being like a river, flowing the easiest course. You have the wealthiest consumer market on the planet right next door and a NAFTA agreement that allows you to throw tons of stuff at it. It's the simple facts that can't be ignored.

In that light, China and other countries like that might be interesting but you'll probably still take care of the business that's the easiest. The criticism of Canadian businessmen is that they're not aggressive in going off the continent and seeking new markets to build upon. Its just too easy to deal in the USA.

So long as there are alternative sources of energy that can be had at a reasonable cost, you can't really pump the USA over energy from the tar sands. You have a commodity to sell and the easiest, most cost effective place to sell it remains the USA. They know it and you know it.

In some ways, its like Arabs and their 1973 oil embargo. They killed the West AND themselves. They have to sell it to the West. Its the only thing of value they have. What are they going to do? NOT sell it? Not likely. We'll continue to sell to the easiest place we can and they'll continue to sop it up. It sure beats hiring a tanker and shipping it to China or India.

My random thoughts.

Cowperson