[News] Ken Holland says Zetterberg is done playing hockey

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

This should be taken care of by the NHL. He should be able to retire and get his money through insurance. And the redwings should be able to retire him. Nothing dodgy going on here. He’s done. He deserves his money. And the redwings should be allowed to move on without his money affecting their cap.
Situations like this are pretty clear cut.way different than Hossa etc

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No, the NHL should. I get this is because it is Zetterberg and the Red Wings who have nothing to do with us but if it was Lucic and the Oilers instead you would be singing a different song and so would the others that are defending it. He is not playing anymore, he won't be playing anymore, he is retired. Not long term injured on the reservation he might or could return, he is done. It is cap circumvention to the clearest extent.

I totally see your point.
LTIR has the word "reserve" in it, therefore it is the most important part of that clause in the CBA.

Come on everyone, the fact that this situation clearly fits both the letter and the spirit of this stipulation in the CBA is no reason to ignore pedantry.

Clearly Zetterberg needs to retire.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Salt Water Cowboy #10

This should be taken care of by the NHL. He should be able to retire and get his money through insurance. And the redwings should be able to retire him. Nothing dodgy going on here. He’s done. He deserves his money. And the redwings should be allowed to move on without his money affecting their cap.
Situations like this are pretty clear cut.way different than Hossa etc

No exactly the same under how unable to play for medical reasons. You just believe one injury is worst

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

He is hurt. You are saying that he got hurt on the job, can no longer do that job, and should not get paid. I hope you don't have employees, I sure wouldn't want to be one of them.

No, if I had an employee who got injured on the job there would be insurance that would pay him and take care of him. Totally different situation then this one, you can't compare pro sports with a regular business.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No, if I had an employee who got injured on the job there would be insurance that would pay him and take care of him. Totally different situation then this one, you can't compare pro sports with a regular business.

NHL has guaranteed contracts they bargained for. It’s exactly the same as a regular business

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No, the NHL should. I get this is because it is Zetterberg and the Red Wings who have nothing to do with us but if it was Lucic and the Oilers instead you would be singing a different song and so would the others that are defending it. He is not playing anymore, he won't be playing anymore, he is retired. Not long term injured on the reservation he might or could return, he is done. It is cap circumvention to the clearest extent.

You do realize we did the exact same thing with Ladislav Smid, right? It's a little too much holier than thou on your part.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

You do realize we did the exact same thing with Ladislav Smid, right? It's a little too much holier than thou on your part.

Technically the only reason we had to do that was because the Oilers medical staff screwed up hard, but further it was a very dangerous neck injury, he tried to come back, got clocked and then called it a day.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Locke

Technically the only reason we had to do that was because the Oilers medical staff screwed up hard, but further it was a very dangerous neck injury, he tried to come back, got clocked and then called it a day.

I'm failing to see the distinction between he and Zetterberg. Are you trying to make one or are you just saying E=NG?

[Strange Brew]

The issue is front loaded contracts and the ability to circumvent the cap in later years. I have sero doubt Zetterberg is legitimately injured. And he deserves to be paid for what he has earned under his contract and under the CBA. That is black and white IMO.

But the other fact is that Zetterberg will have been paid about $68 million under his current contract through last year. And only about $54 million has counted against the cap. So over 9 years the Red Wings created about $1.5 million in annual cap space out of thin air.

Now if Zetterberg were being paid in equal annual amounts we might still end up at a similar place, but it would be LTIR vs. retirement. And maybe people wouldn't be so quick to point fingers knowing the Red Wings were still paying him $6 million per year.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No, the NHL should. I get this is because it is Zetterberg and the Red Wings who have nothing to do with us but if it was Lucic and the Oilers instead you would be singing a different song and so would the others that are defending it. He is not playing anymore, he won't be playing anymore, he is retired. Not long term injured on the reservation he might or could return, he is done. It is cap circumvention to the clearest extent.

No it most certainly is not - he is unable to play because of injuries.

If a 25 year old star player had a career-ending injury (a la Marc Savard), but had just signed an 8 year contract, should he still be entitled to the rest of the money in that contract? By your logic, that would be classified as cap circumvention.

Just because the guy is older in age, and the injuries have accumulated over time, doesn't mean he's any less entitled to the money he's owed as per his contract.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm failing to see the distinction between he and Zetterberg. Are you trying to make one or are you just saying E=NG?

The distinction is Smid still had the desire and possibility to play again as opposed to coming out and saying I am not playing hockey again. Not sure how they are remotely comparable.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

No it most certainly is not - he is unable to play because of injuries.

If a 25 year old star player had a career-ending injury (a la Marc Savard), but had just signed an 8 year contract, should he still be entitled to the rest of the money in that contract? By your logic, that would be classified as cap circumvention.

Just because the guy is older in age, and the injuries have accumulated over time, doesn't mean he's any less entitled to the money he's owed as per his contract.

I am not saying he shouldn't be payed his money, I am saying he is retired, not LTIR. My only issue is with salary cap, regardless of when his contract was signed or if the Wings get cap relief either way it continues to set a precedent that players who are never going to play again can be shelved on LTIR for cap space. That is wrong. If a player is not going to play again or has no chance of playing again he is retired.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The distinction is Smid still had the desire and possibility to play again as opposed to coming out and saying I am not playing hockey again. Not sure how they are remotely comparable.

Well first of all, no Smid didn't really have the ability to play hockey anymore, he was debilitated by his injury. It was career ending.

And you forgot to add to the bolded: "I am not playing hockey again, despite my desire and sincere wish that I could." You are making an assumption with Zetterberg that you have no evidence of being true. He has a degenerative back condition. It's career-ending. Full stop. Get over it.

[FlamesFanFromBC]

Red Wings are a mess.

Roster of aging veteran players (last year they were the oldest team in league by average age), players that are injured long term, no cap space and players locked up into late 30's

At least they accumulated some prospects and picks over last couple years. Sporting news has them ranking 10th best prospect pipeline.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I am not saying he shouldn't be payed his money, I am saying he is retired, not LTIR. My only issue is with salary cap, regardless of when his contract was signed or if the Wings get cap relief either way it continues to set a precedent that players who are never going to play again can be shelved on LTIR for cap space. That is wrong. If a player is not going to play again or has no chance of playing again he is retired.

Except in this instance there is no benefit to the Wings for him being on LTIR as opposed to retiring. It's actually more an inconvenience to place him on LTIR instead of the player retiring (pre-season cap structure, actually paying him $$$). It would be BETTER for the Wings if Zetterberg retired. They would avoid paying him, AND his cap hit would be nullified.

And at the end of the day, I'm sure Detroit would rather have him playing 60-82 games a year at his current cap hit than not play at all. The guy still has game.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Except in this instance there is no benefit to the Wings for him being on LTIR as opposed to retiring. It's actually more an inconvenience to place him on LTIR instead of the player retiring (pre-season cap structure, actually paying him $$$). It would be BETTER for the Wings if Zetterberg retired. They would avoid paying him, AND his cap hit would be nullified.

And at the end of the day, I'm sure Detroit would rather have him playing 60-82 games a year at his current cap hit than not play at all. The guy still has game.

This is not true. The Red Wings face a recapture penalty if Zetterberg officially retires before his contract is over.

The penalty is dead cap space. Unlike Zetterberg on LTIR, it can't be traded and they can't use the LTIR exemption to exceed the salary cap.

Having him on LTIR is the better scenario for Detroit from a cap management perspective.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

This is not true. The Red Wings face a recapture penalty if Zetterberg officially retires before his contract is over.

The penalty is dead cap space. Unlike Zetterberg on LTIR, it can't be traded and they can't use the LTIR exemption to exceed the salary cap.

Having him on LTIR is the better scenario for Detroit from a cap management perspective.

Huh, the more you know! My mistake, dissentowner.

Where is a good, reliable source to get a full understanding of cap information, like recapture? This all seems so overly complicated.

I always thought that if you retired on a contract signed before 35 there were no recapture penalties? More myths from the fake news?

EDIT: Actually found this tidy little explanation https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comm...is_and_why_it/

Thanks Google.

[Erick Estrada]

Is he done because a doctor has declared that he should never play again or is he done because he's only owed $5 million total over the last three years of his deal and doesn't feel like playing through the grind for that type of money? You never see teams declare players in their prime done when they suffer ailments so I just don't understand how this can't be taken year to year. If he doesn't play this year is it not reasonable to accept he may be healthy to start next season after a year off? Why can these guys not be taken year to year?

Monahan was broken down like a man that got hit by a truck last season and he's starting this season. Why is Zetterberg done for the next three seasons because of a "lower body" injury? I don't discount that the wear and tear is getting to him but these players never intended to play out these lower income seasons the day they signed the deal and that's salary cap circumvention. We all know that Zach Parise will be done due to some injury exactly at the end of the 2021/22 season when his salary drops from $6 to $2 million. It is what it is.

Guys like Smid and Roberts that had neck injuries are totally different because we are talking about nerve damage and risk of being paralyzed.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Well first of all, no Smid didn't really have the ability to play hockey anymore, he was debilitated by his injury. It was career ending.

And you forgot to add to the bolded: "I am not playing hockey again, despite my desire and sincere wish that I could." You are making an assumption with Zetterberg that you have no evidence of being true. He has a degenerative back condition. It's career-ending. Full stop. Get over it.

No, there were lots of articles about Smid hoping to return so it is not the same. Also, it is all right to discuss the situation without having to resort to being a jerk about it, you are better than that.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Is he done because a doctor has declared that he should never play again or is he done because he's only owed $5 million total over the last three years of his deal and doesn't feel like playing through the grind for that type of money? You never see teams declare players in their prime done when they suffer ailments so I just don't understand how this can't be taken year to year. If he doesn't play this year is it not reasonable to accept he may be healthy to start next season after a year off? Why can these guys not be taken year to year?

Monahan was broken down like a man that got hit by a truck last season and he's starting this season. Why is Zetterberg done for the next three seasons because of a "lower body" injury? I don't discount that the wear and tear is getting to him but IMO these players never intended to play out these lower income seasons the day they signed the deal and that's salary cap circumvention. We all know that Zach Parise will be done due to some injury exactly at the end of the 2021/22 season when his salary drops from $6 to $2 million. It is what it is.

Guys like Smid and Roberts that had neck injuries are totally different because we are talking about possible palatalization.

I never understood this argument. If the injury is severe enough that it's keeping him out of playing action, why does it matter how much he's making? It doesn't matter if he's making $5 million next year or $1 million, he'd still be getting the same amount of money whether he's playing or on LTIR. So why does the fact that he's only making $5 million over the next three years matter at all?