Redford: Buyers Remorse?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fire

I will never understand people that want to pay more taxes when we are already grossly overtaxed. It's like they trust the government do a better job with their money then they can.

That's OK. I will never understand people who don't want to pay their own way. We demand some services from government and someone has to pay for them. I'd prefer it's not continually downloaded to the next generation.

[GP_Matt]

The mayor of Vancouver said that he would do everything in his power to stop Kinder Morgan.
As for remourse I do support the WRA and did vote for them. However I think 3 months is too early to judge a 4 year deal. I am hopeful that the wildrose will present a stronger opposition to keep some of the past PC arrogance out of the legislature but time will tell.

Makarov, are you saying that you want a sales tax introduced in addition to current taxes or as a package of tax reform. If it is in addition then I am scared to think what will happen to this province if we ever do have a sustained drop in energy revenue. We would have revenue similar to other provinces and spending way above debt could get out of control quickly.
If a sales tax is brought in to replace/restructure income taxes then I am definitely interested in the conversation and seeing what it would look like.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jonesy

She gambled on national energy thingy and lost big time. I heard someone wonder if we should do a national forestry agreement and charge tolls for BC wood products to cross our borders. Seems she opened a can of worms. I don't think it was a good idea at all. I never voted for her and she is doing things in a way that makes me glad i didn't.

I dont get this. What is wrong with trying to reach a national consensus? I think the strategy was sound.

It hasn't worked because Clark is being greedy but Redford succeeded in getting a majority of Premiers onside. What exactly has been lost? There's nothing preventing Alberta from playing hardball now or in the future, plus Redford now has several other Premiers who can bring pressure to bear against BC.

As it is Premier Clark is being ridiculed in the national media for her ridiculous position.

To criticise Redford for NOT being confrontational is foolish and is nothing more than a partisan attack.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

If a sales tax is brought in to replace/restructure income taxes then I am definitely interested in the conversation and seeing what it would look like.

You mean to restructure our income taxes in Alberta that are already extremely low?

[Senator Clay Davis]

There's truly no point to negotiating with BC at the moment. Christy knows she is DOA so she's doing whatever she can to buy some votes, so why give her anything? When the NDP wins the BC election then would be the time to actually start negotiating, even if it'll be pointless because they'll try and block the pipeline regardless.

[GP_Matt]

What would the province do with more money though?
Their biggest expense at the moment is wages and they will have a harder time negotiating if they are swimming in more cash.
Right now income taxes in the province are something like 8 percent, a 5 percent PST would be a 62 percent increase in personal taxes collected. I definitely don't think that is necessary.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

What would the province do with more money though?
Their biggest expense at the moment is wages and they will have a harder time negotiating if they are swimming in more cash.
Right now income taxes in the province are something like 8 percent, a 5 percent PST would be a 62 percent increase in personal taxes collected. I definitely don't think that is necessary.

How about saving some of the one-time resource revenue we currently enjoy. I know that sounds crazy and ill-advised, but hear me out!

This province was clearly a have-not. In fact we're the only province to have defaulted in the 1930's before the oil started flowing. If oil becomes more available, less wanted or whatever there is no reason we couldn't go back to those days.

Instead we use all of these royalties and revenue to keep taxes low for this generation. Frankly speaking, aside from this we have absolutely nothing to show for it. None of the government programs (be it healthcare, education or infrastructure) show any hint of the resource wealth we enjoy. We have crown corporation that we've built and no enormous cash account either. Essentially one generation has paid less for the same rudimentary services than everyone else in Canada, and that's it. It's a pathetic track record when you put it in that context.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

What would the province do with more money though?
Their biggest expense at the moment is wages and they will have a harder time negotiating if they are swimming in more cash.
Right now income taxes in the province are something like 8 percent, a 5 percent PST would be a 62 percent increase in personal taxes collected. I definitely don't think that is necessary.

That math doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You can't just compare income tax and sales tax rates straight across and equate them.

[GP_Matt]

I agree with you Slava but don't trust the current government to follow through with savings. Look at their history. The heritage fund started off great but has been raided during good years and is now worth less than ever. They couldn't spend the money in the fund but have had no qualms about spending the growth/interest.
To get around the bad publicity of pulling money out of the Heritage fund the government stopped putting surplus money in the fund and redirected it to the sustainability fund instead. That money is almost gone now and yet oil revenue hardly dipped at all and has now increased to cover most of the loss from low gas prices.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That math doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You can't just compare income tax and sales tax rates straight across and equate them.

Why not? If today I am paying 8 percent of my income and tomorrow I am paying an additional 5 percent of my spending. I understand that you won't pay the tax on your savings and food, but the savings rate in Ab is close to zero. Food is a factor but is it 10 percent of a persons budget? Maybe another 10 percent isn't taxed so that puts the effective sales tax at 4 percent which is a 50 percent tax increase over what I was paying.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

How about saving some of the one-time resource revenue we currently enjoy. I know that sounds crazy and ill-advised, but hear me out!

This province was clearly a have-not. In fact we're the only province to have defaulted in the 1930's before the oil started flowing. If oil becomes more available, less wanted or whatever there is no reason we couldn't go back to those days.

Instead we use all of these royalties and revenue to keep taxes low for this generation. Frankly speaking, aside from this we have absolutely nothing to show for it. None of the government programs (be it healthcare, education or infrastructure) show any hint of the resource wealth we enjoy. We have crown corporation that we've built and no enormous cash account either. Essentially one generation has paid less for the same rudimentary services than everyone else in Canada, and that's it. It's a pathetic track record when you put it in that context.

Funny that you take this position when the very party that did all that ^^^ (entirely and completely i might add)....is the one you are supporting in this debate.

Very bizarre.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I agree with you Slava but don't trust the current government to follow through with savings. Look at their history. The heritage fund started off great but has been raided during good years and is now worth less than ever. They couldn't spend the money in the fund but have had no qualms about spending the growth/interest.
To get around the bad publicity of pulling money out of the Heritage fund the government stopped putting surplus money in the fund and redirected it to the sustainability fund instead. That money is almost gone now and yet oil revenue hardly dipped at all and has now increased to cover most of the loss from low gas prices.

Sure, but the painful realization is that we don't have a terrible spending problem. We have a revenue problem and it will take a significant amount of political courage to deal with it. I looked through the Wildrose documents and they couldn't balance the budget either with their planned cuts - there is simoly not enough money coming in the door.

Also of importance is that gas has always been more significant to our budget than oil. We were getting 5-7x the royalties from gas than what we get from oil. It has nothing to do with politics either, but all of the shale that became accessible.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Funny that you take this position when the very party that did all that ^^^ (entirely and completely i might add)....is the one you are supporting in this debate.

Very bizarre.

Well the party I usually support isn't in this debate so given the lesser of two evils...

[GP_Matt]

Resource revenue has only been higher than today in 2004-2007 and 2008/2009 fiscal years. It was only significantly higher once.

The high gas prices were likely an anomaly and waiting for them to bring our province back to glory is like the high school sports star who won't stop talking about the good old days.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Resource revenue has only been higher than today in 2004-2007 and 2008/2009 fiscal years. It was only significantly higher once.

The high gas prices were likely an anomaly and waiting for them to bring our province back to glory is like the high school sports star who won't stop talking about the good old days.

That's why the conversation is so important. We have to increase revenues so that we can pay for everything without relying entirely on resource revenue.

[killer_carlson]

I'm hearing a lot of buyers remorse, but also what has been said in the thread about the WR. Namely that the alternative was unpalatable, mostly because of the social platform of some of the WR candidates.

[Mr.Coffee]

meh, ultimately it all doesn't matter. AB requires BC based on the existing NES, but BC is a total mess. Northern Gateway is never happening anyway, oil will never flow west with that ultimate Asian destination. The bands are adamantly against it, as are most of the BC populace, which forced Christy's hand to switch positions for the sake of trying to hold onto power (doesn't matter, the NDP will take over regardless). But ultimately if the bands are against it and have declared no compromise there is nothing you can do anyway.

This is why CNOOC's pick up of Nexen is kind of amusing, the Chinese have never truly had to deal with our hilarious and extreme regulatory bureaucracies. Canadian jurisdictions, rules, and regulations are unprecedented when compared globally. The stakeholders here are quite powerful and I'd imagine this is a complete 180 degrees from Chinese energy policy. Good luck China! Should be funny.

A National Energy Strategy could work, if it were any other country but Canada, but won't, because it is Canada and frankly because of how our country was formed, moulding unique tenure, rules, regulations and energy policies across provincial jurisdictions.

Also not sure it's widely understood that NG /= PTP, which has been approved and is ready to go.

In conclusion, there is not much any AB government can do about energy policy, other than truly begin to diversify from O&G which ultimately would be the best long term thing to do.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Fire

I will never understand people that want to pay more taxes when we are already grossly overtaxed. It's like they trust the government do a better job with their money then they can.

Nah...some people think that Government's role is to do the things that people can't/won't do.

You and I can't build a healthcare system, roads, Universities etc.

And we live in a jurisdiction where natural resources are subsidizing our quality of life and tax rates in ways most of the world could only dream about...grossly overtaxed? Sheesh.

[c.t.ner]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I'm hearing a lot of buyers remorse, but also what has been said in the thread about the WR. Namely that the alternative was unpalatable, mostly because of the social platform of some of the WR candidates.

To be honest I don't think many people really care at this point. The next election is in four years, it's only been 3 months and it's the middle of summer. In general I think for most albertans life is really good. We're not battling huge unemployment, a recession and the average person is taking a good salary and living a comfortable life.

Most of the noise and buyer's remorse is coming from the Calgary Sun and Wildrose supporters. Which is fine, if the tables had turned I'd be all over the Wildrose, but in general I don't think the average Albertan really cares that much and will be pretty indifferent to everything. Most of the "issues" coming up at the moment will be forgotten by the time the next election rolls around anyways...

[taffeyb]

Redford is doing okay...

She is very accomplished...needs to remain firm in terms of this royalty issue...

Clark painted herself into a corner. I understand the need and want for more benefit, but where did the idea of sharing royalties ever come from? Christ...all she had to do was lobby for higher tolls/tariffs on the completed pipeline or even charged a surtax...How about increasing port fees for the tankers...? There are a lot of levers that would accomplish the desire for more cash.

Idiots trying the dictate policy.