Healthcare in America

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Sure I failed cause you are busy patting yourself on the back cause you think you have a magic foolproof formula for health coverage.

I do? Anyone else get that from my post?

What I have is a KNOWN entity that is satisfactory for my situation. The UNKNOWN of a universal American health care system coupled with my situation scares the hell out of me.

That makes me an ass?

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I do? Anyone else get that from my post?

What I have is a KNOWN entity that is satisfactory for my situation. The UNKNOWN of a universal American health care system coupled with my situation scares the hell out of me.

That makes me an ass?

Did somebody call you as a..? talk about failing miserably

You should be more scared of losing your job then your benefits followed by another random crappy break and you are up the creek. You can work as hard as you want if you think that is what seperates you from a worse fate, but there is way too many things you and hard work have no control over.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Did somebody call you as a..? talk about failing miserably

Yes, indirectly you did.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Did somebody call you as a..? talk about failing miserably

You should be more scared of losing your job then your benefits followed by another random crappy break and you are up the creek. You can work as hard as you want if you think that is what seperates you from a worse fate, but there is way too many things you and hard work have no control over.

Of course, that is always a concern. There's tons of stuff we can't control. I don't think I intimated that I have no worries or that things can't get worse.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Matata

*gets on pedestal*

In the last year, I had emergency surgery on my intestines ~2 months into a new job. Under the American system, this could have resulted in me being up to my eyeballs in debt until my fifties and potentially receive inferior treatment that could have seriously diminished my quality of life permanently. Under the Canadian system, I got top shelf treatment and never saw a hospital bill. They may fudge the little things and there is clear room for improvement, but they are getting a lot of the big things right.

Random thoughts:

There's also an intangible economic benefit to having a healthy and productive workforce.

I just paid $1.88 (got my health insurance now) for $3000 (street value) of percocet.

And I've had friends that had to go to Mayo Clinic in the states for major surgery because living with a herniated disk pressing against his sciatic nerve for 6 months while he waited for surgery here in Canada simply wasn't an option. Strangely enough, his doctor told him that was the only option.

For all the people that have had great results with our system, there are many more that have had nightmares, but I suppose that is alright if you had major surgery and it went well.

Not trying to pick on you, but it annoys the hell out of me when people complain about our healthcare system and the WELL documented waiting lists for a lot of different things, and the reply they get is 'well I've had great results.'

If 6 people have great results and 4 people suffer, is that a successful system? Because that is how it goes in Canada.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You shouldn't have to work hard to get good medical insurance...it should never be tied to your station in life or what you've done with it. Basic decent health care should be one of those things that really should be a universal right imo. People don't deserve a lot of things, but not having people suffer is something we should all try to work towards.

Agreed.

I also agree that people in Canada where we HAVE a universal system shouldn't have to suffer because of long waiting lists. But, considering the universal solution to a universal system is to universally throw more money at it, I suspect we won't see REAL solutions anytime soon.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by QuadCityImages

The funny thing is that insurance itself is a form of socialism, but the folks who love our current system don't see it that way. True capitalism would mean making enough money to buy your own medical care directly. Insurance is a group of people banding together, pooling their money, in the belief that it will go to those who need it. But if you expand that idea to 300 million "members" it suddenly becomes evil, somehow...

The overwhelming majority of Americans that I know who are against the US government running a universal health care program are against it because they honestly don't think the US government can actually run it properly without causing a massive screwup.

If the whole system is reset, then it might work. The way it currently is? No way in hell.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Azure

And I've had friends that had to go to Mayo Clinic in the states for major surgery because living with a herniated disk pressing against his sciatic nerve for 6 months while he waited for surgery here in Canada simply wasn't an option. Strangely enough, his doctor told him that was the only option.

For all the people that have had great results with our system, there are many more that have had nightmares, but I suppose that is alright if you had major surgery and it went well.

Not trying to pick on you, but it annoys the hell out of me when people complain about our healthcare system and the WELL documented waiting lists for a lot of different things, and the reply they get is 'well I've had great results.'

If 6 people have great results and 4 people suffer, is that a successful system? Because that is how it goes in Canada.

Dude you're complaining about waiting a few hours to get some stitches. That's you "suffering"?

Grow up.

[Ashartus]

One of the biggest problems in the US system is the profit-driven nature. I've known several people in the US who were prescribed unnecessary drugs or given unnecessary tests because these tests resulted in someone making money. In one case a Canadian I knew who was visiting the US had a medical emergency and was subjected to a series of completely unnecessary but highly profitable diagnostic imaging procedures but not given the simpler but less profitable tests that would have actually detected the worst part of his injury; as a result he was misdiagnosed which may have contributed to his eventual death. While every system has its strengths and weaknesses, even taking the decision-making authority away from people or organizations whose profit is affected by those decisions would probably result in a significant improvement in both outcomes and costs.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by evman150

Dude you're complaining about waiting a few hours to get some stitches. That's you "suffering"?

Grow up.

Ah yes, the classic 'our health care is good enough, so quit complaining' reply. Some of us actually have a life, a job....and sitting 6 hours in the waiting room for a 10 min procedure is a waste of my time.

Love the arrogance though. Typical response.

BTW, I never said I suffered. I said it is ridiculous that it takes 6 hours to get 6 stitches.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

And I've had friends that had to go to Mayo Clinic in the states for major surgery because living with a herniated disk pressing against his sciatic nerve for 6 months while he waited for surgery here in Canada simply wasn't an option. Strangely enough, his doctor told him that was the only option.

How much did your friend pay for that privilege. Surgery will probably run $10,000 at the Mayo at least.

[Flash Walken]

For every 6 hour wait for Azure to get teeny weeny little stitches in his itty bitty finger, there is a helicopter ambulance transport, quadruple bypass and a family that is glad they aren't looking at a half-million dollar bill.

With such a mess the US government created with things like the FDA, Occupational Safety and Health Administration, NHTSA, developing and operating extensive private military healthcare, delivering mail, I can see why you wouldn't want them ruining things like for profit health care.

Yup, better leave that sort of stuff to the pros. Keep up the good work, Brownie.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

How much did your friend pay for that privilege. Surgery will probably run $10,000 at the Mayo at least.

Around $45,000 actually. In and out within a week.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ah yes, the classic 'our health care is good enough, so quit complaining' reply. Some of us actually have a life, a job....and sitting 6 hours in the waiting room for a 10 min procedure is a waste of my time.

Love the arrogance though. Typical response.

BTW, I never said I suffered. I said it is ridiculous that it takes 6 hours to get 6 stitches.

No system is perfect. Waiting for a while to get stitches is the sacrifice we make so that everyone can get the life saving surgeries and treatments that they need. In my view, that is a bargain I am happy to make every single time.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

No system is perfect. Waiting for a while to get stitches is the sacrifice we make so that everyone can get the life saving surgeries and treatments that they need. In my view, that is bargain I am happy to make every single time.

Lame excuse. The 'clinic' I was at doesn't preform life saving treatments. If went to a major hospital I wouldn't expect to get treated for something so minor. But that is why clinics exist. That is why you're supposed to be able to go there, get treated, and leave within a reasonable amount of time without holding anyone back from having their 'life' saved.

I'm not expecting the system to be perfect. But I'm not seeing an attempt to make it better either. All I'm seeing is arrogant excuses of how I should quit complaining and accept the 6 hour wait because no system is 'perfect.'

[Sr. Mints]

Sometimes it's really frustrating being 'in the system' up here, but things could certainly be worse.

I don't think our system is so broken that if you need acute care you don't get anything but the best . . . but if you aren't dying, get in line.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

Lame excuse. The 'clinic' I was at doesn't preform life saving treatments. If went to a major hospital I wouldn't expect to get treated for something so minor. But that is why clinics exist. That is why you're supposed to be able to go there, get treated, and leave within a reasonable amount of time without holding anyone back from having their 'life' saved.

It has nothing to do with venue. It has to do with resources and doctors. Those resources and doctors are limited and therefore quite rightly distrubuted based on need (i.e., where they are needed to save people's lives, not on stitches) rather than based on who can pay the most.

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not expecting the system to be perfect. But I'm not seeing an attempt to make it better either. All I'm seeing is arrogant excuses of how I should quit complaining and accept the 6 hour wait because no system is 'perfect.'

If you're not seeing attempts to make the Canadian healthcare system better, I don't know what to tell you. In my opinion, that topic receives more attention than any other topic in the national discourse. It is a national obsession.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

Lame excuse. The 'clinic' I was at doesn't preform life saving treatments. If went to a major hospital I wouldn't expect to get treated for something so minor. But that is why clinics exist. That is why you're supposed to be able to go there, get treated, and leave within a reasonable amount of time without holding anyone back from having their 'life' saved.

I'm not expecting the system to be perfect. But I'm not seeing an attempt to make it better either. All I'm seeing is arrogant excuses of how I should quit complaining and accept the 6 hour wait because no system is 'perfect.'

Well, now it's pretty obvious what happened.

Your first problem? Going to a clinic in rural alberta and expecting them not to be busy. Tough luck though that they made you wait for 6 hours and not everyone else.

Personal experience in Calgary: 20 minute wait with a massive ear infection to get antibiotics. One year to the day later, same time period (morning), 3 hour wait. Guess what? They were busy. It's not hamburgers, it's healthcare, and if you can't wait to get your finger stitched up, go to another clinic or do it yourself.

You know what's a huge relief when you're sitting in a hospital waiting room by yourself holding a towel over your eye? Not having to think about how much this experience is going to cost you, aside from your eye. You don't think about it at the time, but, reading threads like this reminds me. It would have sucked contemplating being blind AND in debt for tens of thousands of dollars. Thinking about the injury at hand was worse enough.

Chalk that up to my anecdote vs. your anecdote I guess.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

The Canadian health care system is far from perfect. There are sometimes excessive wait-times due to under-resourced facilities, there are inefficiencies in the way that services are billed to the government, many places don't even have enough doctors, the list goes on.

But we don't have eighteen-month old kids dying of asthma in a car outside the emergency room of a hospital that happens to be outside their HMO. (yes, this kind of thing has happened--notwithstanding that hospitals are supposed to provide life-saving care when it's needed) We also don't have working families being burdened with outrageous insurance premiums, or people going bankrupt because they made the mistake of getting cancer.

So, no--our system is not perfect. In fact, it has major problems. But the abomination they have in the United States (which I experienced firsthand for over a decade) is absolutely broken. We should try to improve our system in any way we can. What we should NOT do is emulate our neighbours from the south, who really should be emulating us.

I share DFF's distaste for "Obama/Romneycare." It's possibly the worst solution anyone could have come up with, in that it's not a solution at all, and will impose huge costs on the middle class. It's a plan only an insurance company could love.

[Montana Moe]

Long rant ahead...


The thought of having to declare bankruptcy because someone in my family gets sick or has a bad accident scares the hell out of me. I'm sure I'm not the only parent that has treated their sick child at home due to cost when they should be going to the clinic. I wish I didn't have to have those concerns.

If I had to rely on my wife's insurance plan, we'd be paying $358 every two weeks for family coverage. This is at a company where most people make $10-$15 per hour. Does that sound reasonable to anyone? There are many people in the U.S. that are basically working for health insurance (and child care, but that's another rant for another day). Those high premiums wouldn't help them at all until they pay the $2,000 deductible that I'm sure they just have lying around.

Thankfully, I also have a job that has excellent insurance. It was certainly one of the benefits I looked forward to when I was hired. Unfortunately, there is a $1 million lifetime maximum. My supervisor nearly burned through that in one year when he was stricken by Guillian Barre Syndrome. Even though he's basically tapped out his funds for life under our insurance plan, he's still required to pay into it as an employee (thanks, Boss!). He's had to put himself on his wife's insurance plan to ensure he'll be covered in the future. Yay, double coverage!

It's not like we don't have wait times in the States. My 3 y/o daughter went to the emergency room with what we thought was either a broken arm or dislocated elbow (it was Nursemaid's Elbow), we waited 3 hours to see a doctor while not being able to move her arm without her screaming in pain. There are wait times for non-emergent surgeries here, as well. Especially if you have to go through your insurer's choice of provider. Obviously, life threatening emergent surgeries are typically performed without delay, just like in Canada. Of course, getting that bill in the mail is always a comforting reminder that our insurance, or freedom from it, isn't free. There truly is a hefty fata-ing fee...

I'm for a complete overhaul. There are a few things I like about "Obamacare", namely the elimination of refusal due to preexisting conditions, and the increased age of coverage for children (up to 26), but I don't believe it goes far enough. Profit shouldn't be a priority in healthcare, as long as there is a profit motive, the patient is not the priority. What's the model? Canada's plan obviously has it's faults, and with a nation as large as the U.S., it creates logistical issues as well. How do we continue to fund research? I don't claim to have the answers, but I do believe that we have the knowledge and ability to find an acceptable solution if we put our minds to it.

What's the guy that designed the interstate highway system up to? That was a pretty good idea...