Israel declares war on Hamas

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Well that's all you do. A little labeller.
So you're repeating the accusation again by saying he is "exactly what you are crying about being labeled"?

Haha yes that is exactly what I am doing. Maybe both of you can split a subscription to the Quds Network, i hear they are giving a discount.

You label anyone who disagrees with you a liar. Your accusations are all over this thread. Daily. Little Labeller

The same two posters who criticize and nitpick every source from pro-Israel posters somehow feel that Al-Jazeera and the Quds Network, one funded by Qatar and the other Hamas , are fine sources to share.

Two weeks ago I provided an op-ed piece by a leading scholar on genocide which detailed why he did not believe a genocide was taking place. This was in response to a poster (I cannot remember who) who made a post referencing a UN lawyer who claimed a genocide was taking place. Something you have asserted many times in this thread. I provided a counter piece by an actual professor on the topic of genocide. It was not in any way shape or form a pro-Israel piece, but made the argument that a genocide is not occurring. Of course Lanny had a problem with this and even vaguely referenced the author may not be qualified to talk about this because he may have a bias, which is probably because Lanny believed he had a Jewish last name. Not surprising, but both of you are cool with sharing links from Quds Network and Al-Jazeera. I rest my case.

https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...ddle-east/amp/

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Agree to just allow blatant lies? That what you're saying?

And just move on to the next one?

you guys are pretty much just talking to each other, I dont think anyone else is bothering to read any of it, if you stopped there wouldn't likely be any lies

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Lanny has made fun of Jewish history multiple times in this thread, sarcastically making comments like labeling Jewish history as fairy tales,

Let's get the facts straight here, because you're doing exactly what Bagor accuses you of, lying to try to make your point.

My comments were directed at YOU and YOUR CLAIMS of there being 3,000 years of history to the land, documented through your holy books. Your holy books are fables and fairy tales. PERIOD. It is almost universally recognized that the biblical old testament is a collection of fables and allegories meant as teaching tools, NOT an actual historical document to be held high and used as a document to stake claim to anything. You clinging to that as part of history that gives Jews rights to the land is what draws the comments.

while congruently not even understanding the difference between a religion and ethnicity, or the fact that the two can be intertwined.

Oh I understand the difference between a religion and an ethnicity. I challenged you that non-practicing Jews don't fall into that ethnicity as they do not maintain the characteristics of the ethnicity (language, traditions, values, or behaviors) to which you freaked out and called me an antisemite for the first time. You became even more unhinged when I suggested Muslims can also be classified an ethnicity - which they can/are. But both are clearly identified as a religious belief more so than an ethnicity. Try finding that "Jew" checkbox under ethnicity next time you have to fill out a government form.

;-)

Continually cries about me labelling him an antisemite, not for any criticism of Israel, but for implying my posts will make people dislike Jews. Now here we are again with him accusing pro-Israel posters with lobbing assertions of antisemitism when that has not been the case.

Trust me, your posts do exactly what I suggested they could do. I'm not the only one who has been appalled by your posts and found a level of distaste that drives them in the other direction. Same with Pointman. You've lost the crowd. Little tip. When you're clamoring for sympathy do be spewing hateful rhetoric that would make your side worse in comparison.

Originally Posted by Beninho

Haha yes that is exactly what I am doing. Maybe both of you can split a subscription to the Quds Network, i hear they are giving a discount.

See, helping your cause.

Two weeks ago I provided an op-ed piece by a leading scholar on genocide which detailed why he did not believe a genocide was taking place. This was in response to a poster (I cannot remember who) who made a post referencing a UN lawyer who claimed a genocide was taking place. Something you have asserted many times in this thread. I provided a counter piece by an actual professor on the topic of genocide. It was not in any way shape or form a pro-Israel piece, but made the argument that a genocide is not occurring.

Okay, again, let's not twist the facts here. YOU tried to pass the piece off as balanced reporting on what was going on in Israel. YOU misrepresented what the article was and got called on it.

Of course Lanny had a problem with this and even vaguely referenced the author may not be qualified to talk about this because he may have a bias, which is probably because Lanny believed he had a Jewish last name.

This is more bull#### wrapped up in your paranoia about people looking down on Jews. YOU missed the fact that it was an OPINION piece by an academic who makes his living from denying the topic. That's what made him biased and what made the article useless. How the hell did you miss that, beyond your regular delusions and paranoia?

Here's the post in question.

"Originally Posted by Beninho View Post
https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...ddle-east/amp/

"It is not a genocide, the displacements of people due to war and the death of civilians does not show intent. If Israel was committing genocide why would they be protecting citizens who are attempting to walk from the north to the south? Seems like a poor way to commit genocide. There are actual proper ways to criticize Israel without inappropriately citing it as a genocide.
The author argues the semantics of the use of the term genocide but does clearly describe the conditions under which a genocide may be take place or be identified."

To which I responded with:

"The convention prohibits certain acts committed with a specific “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” The forbidden acts themselves include killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part,” imposing measures to prevent births within the group, and forcibly transferring their children to another group. So in order to commit genocide, one must commit one of those specific acts, and do so with the special intent outlined above."

Clearly Israel's actions in forcing Palestinians to flee to two locations "for their safety" and then attacking those positions seems to be indicative of an act of possible genocide. The exact same behavior took place in Bosnia/Serbia. Seems using the author's own checklist there is an argument of such atrocities."

Then you followed up with this beauty;

"You using Al Jazaeera which then quotes an organization that is incredibly anti-Israel is also laughable. Here is an actual balanced take on the matter that you will arrogantly shrug off. You are incapable of having a balanced discussion on this because you are so full of it no one can change your world view. It still is not a genocide no matter how much you wanna scream it."

And I followed up with:

What part of the disclaimer at the beginning of the article did you miss?

THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY CONTRIBUTORS ARE THEIR OWN AND NOT THE VIEW OF THE HILL

BY MAXIM PENSKY, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR - 10/17/23

It's an OPINION piece by Pensky who is very much invested in one side of this debate. Yet you say it is an actual balanced take?"

That was clearly about Pensky's position and what drove his bias. No mention of religion or ethnicity. You projected that out there yourself. Blame that on no one but yourself.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Let's get the facts straight here, because you're doing exactly what Bagor accuses you of, lying to try to make your point.

My comments were directed at YOU and YOUR CLAIMS of there being 3,000 years of history to the land, documented through your holy books. Your holy books are fables and fairy tales. PERIOD. It is almost universally recognized that the biblical old testament is a collection of fables and allegories meant as teaching tools, NOT an actual historical document to be held high and used as a document to stake claim to anything. You clinging to that as part of history that gives Jews rights to the land is what draws the comments.



Oh I understand the difference between a religion and an ethnicity. I challenged you that non-practicing Jews don't fall into that ethnicity as they do not maintain the characteristics of the ethnicity (language, traditions, values, or behaviors) to which you freaked out and called me an antisemite for the first time. You became even more unhinged when I suggested Muslims can also be classified an ethnicity - which they can/are. But both are clearly identified as a religious belief more so than an ethnicity. Try finding that "Jew" checkbox under ethnicity next time you have to fill out a government form.

;-)



Trust me, your posts do exactly what I suggested they could do. I'm not the only one who has been appalled by your posts and found a level of distaste that drives them in the other direction. Same with Pointman. You've lost the crowd. Little tip. When you're clamoring for sympathy do be spewing hateful rhetoric that would make your side worse in comparison.



See, helping your cause.



Okay, again, let's not twist the facts here. YOU tried to pass the piece off as balanced reporting on what was going on in Israel. YOU misrepresented what the article was and got called on it.



This is more bull#### wrapped up in your paranoia about people looking down on Jews. YOU missed the fact that it was an OPINION piece by an academic who makes his living from denying the topic. That's what made him biased and what made the article useless. How the hell did you miss that, beyond your regular delusions and paranoia?

Here's the post in question.

"Originally Posted by Beninho View Post
https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...ddle-east/amp/

"It is not a genocide, the displacements of people due to war and the death of civilians does not show intent. If Israel was committing genocide why would they be protecting citizens who are attempting to walk from the north to the south? Seems like a poor way to commit genocide. There are actual proper ways to criticize Israel without inappropriately citing it as a genocide.
The author argues the semantics of the use of the term genocide but does clearly describe the conditions under which a genocide may be take place or be identified."

To which I responded with:

"The convention prohibits certain acts committed with a specific “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” The forbidden acts themselves include killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part,” imposing measures to prevent births within the group, and forcibly transferring their children to another group. So in order to commit genocide, one must commit one of those specific acts, and do so with the special intent outlined above."

Clearly Israel's actions in forcing Palestinians to flee to two locations "for their safety" and then attacking those positions seems to be indicative of an act of possible genocide. The exact same behavior took place in Bosnia/Serbia. Seems using the author's own checklist there is an argument of such atrocities."

Then you followed up with this beauty;

"You using Al Jazaeera which then quotes an organization that is incredibly anti-Israel is also laughable. Here is an actual balanced take on the matter that you will arrogantly shrug off. You are incapable of having a balanced discussion on this because you are so full of it no one can change your world view. It still is not a genocide no matter how much you wanna scream it."

And I followed up with:

What part of the disclaimer at the beginning of the article did you miss?

THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY CONTRIBUTORS ARE THEIR OWN AND NOT THE VIEW OF THE HILL

BY MAXIM PENSKY, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR - 10/17/23

It's an OPINION piece by Pensky who is very much invested in one side of this debate. Yet you say it is an actual balanced take?"

That was clearly about Pensky's position and what drove his bias. No mention of religion or ethnicity. You projected that out there yourself. Blame that on no one but yourself.

You claimed All muslims are part of an ethno-religous group while citing Wikipedia which was referencing an ethnic group of Muslims in Bosnia. You essentially believed Indonesian Muslims were part of the same ethnic group as Arab Muslims. You keep referencing the Old Testament as fairy tales, when that is not what I am arguing. I am saying since you came into this thread with your anti-religious rhetoric that you have continued with conflating actual Jewish history with biblical history. Jews descend from the levant, specifically Judea and Samaria. This is a scholarly fact, not fairy tales. You seem to still have zero understanding of the term ethno-religion or the difference between Old Testament and actual verifiable Jewish history, I have never once cited any biblical scriptures, just maintained you have zero understanding of Jews or the religion of Jews. This seems to be kind of important when discussing this conflict wouldn’t you say? One would think given how many posts you have made in here that you would have just a small understanding of Jewish history at all. But you don’t.

Are you trying to say that because “Jew”
Is not on a racial checkbox on government forms that Jews are less of an ethnicity? Almost like these are racial categories and most Jews in Canada are white passing. Jews are not a race and make up such a small percentage of the Canadian population that I would not expect there to be a Jewish box. Is there an Armenian box? Lol, what are you even trying to say here.


Please find me any source that would claim the professors piece I cited would have any reason to be biased? The only reason I inferred that is because it is the only plausible reason you would think he is biased. It is not a pro-Israel piece in any way. But you can cite Al-Jazeera as a neutral non biased source and cry about the New York Times. Hell, you even went in a diatribe about how fantastic Al-Jazeera was.

Also keep circling around your post which threatened that viewers of this thread will hate Jews because of my posts. But I am the hateful one, I’m not the one warning Palestinian or Arab posters to be careful with what they say or people may hate their entire ethnic group.

You lack any sort of nuance combined with zero historical background on this conflict but have so much nonsense to say.

[PsYcNeT]

Beninho is one of those guys who believes in the Zionist Divine Right stuff eh

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Beninho is one of those guys who believes in the Zionist Divine Right stuff eh

He specifically cited Jewish history and Judea, which existed well after the transcription of any religious texts.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

a leading scholar on genocide .

Here you go. Not that it will make a difference given you are stuck in the 10th stage of genocide.

Raz Segal is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University.[1] He has written multiple books about the Holocaust in Carpathian Ruthenia.

In the context of the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, the Israeli counterattacks, and the imposed complete blockade, which included the denial of water, food, power, and fuel to the civilian population, Segal described it as a "textbook case of genocide" and connected it to the Nakba, the expulsion of Palestinians during the establishment of srael in 1948.[2][3] According to Segal, the Israel Defense Forces are actively engaged in three genocidal actions: acts of killing, infliction of severe body harm, and implementation of measures strategically designed to destroy Palestinian existence. As evidence, he accuses the IDF of total war by destroying mass swathes of Gaza and imposing a strict blockade of essentials such as food, water, and medicine.[4]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raz_Segal

Oh look. An Israeli leading scholar using the exact same phase. A textbook case of Genocide. In a Jewish journal nonetheless.

But the assault on Gaza can also be understood in other terms: as a textbook case of genocide unfolding in front of our eyes. I say this as a scholar of genocide, who has spent many years writing about Israeli mass violence against Palestinians. I have written about settler colonialism and Jewish supremacy in Israel, the distortion of the Holocaust to boost the Israeli arms industry, the weaponization of antisemitism accusations to justify Israeli violence against Palestinians, and the racist regime of Israeli apartheid. Now, following Hamas’s attack on Saturday and the mass murder of more than 1,000 Israeli civilians, the worst of the worst is happening.

https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

[_Q_]

I mean, nobody is really denying the idea that Jews lived in the Middle East at some point. Those people are long gone, however, and have nothing to do with the white people claiming to be native to the Middle East now. The only thing they have in common with the ancient tribes of Israel is their common belief in the same fairy tale.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I mean, nobody is really denying the idea that Jews lived in the Middle East at some point. Those people are long gone, however, and have nothing to do with the white people claiming to be native to the Middle East now. The only thing they have in common with the ancient tribes of Israel is their common belief in the same fairy tale.

And genetics that directly trace their heritage back to those people:



As far as skin tone is concerned, the Samaritans are the only group to have continuous occupation in the area. This is what they look like and the skin tone they have:



The idea that Jews are just random European people who converted to Judaism is baseless. Converting away from Christianity was considered an extremely serious crime, until very recently.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

you guys are pretty much just talking to each other, I dont think anyone else is bothering to read any of it, if you stopped there wouldn't likely be any lies

blankall isn't talking to me.
If he was he would acknowledge or address his seven lies.
But how Israeli of you asking me to be quiet and allow the lies and false narrative to continue unchallenged.
And because we all hang onto every word of your posts and never skim over it.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I mean, nobody is really denying the idea that Jews lived in the Middle East at some point. Those people are long gone, however, and have nothing to do with the white people claiming to be native to the Middle East now. The only thing they have in common with the ancient tribes of Israel is their common belief in the same fairy tale.

There are literally hundreds of DNA studies done on Jews showing that Ashkenazi Jews are roughly 40-60% Levantine but go on. Also there are 3.2 million Mizrahi Jews in Israel who come from Arab countries because the Arabs ethnically cleansed their countries of Jews after the foundation of Israel. Also interesting to note that Jews from Europe are more genetically similar to Sphardic or Mizrahi Jews than to their host country. Jews from Poland for example have almost zero Polish genetics. Bunch of fairy tales tho. This is the problem tho, so many people have so much to say about Jews and Israel but have zero actual understanding of Jews.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Beninho is one of those guys who believes in the Zionist Divine Right stuff eh

Divine right? Not at all, I am not religious. I believe Jews descend from Israel and are indigenous to the land. I also believe the Palestinians are also indigenous to the land and deserve a state. I’ve said that many times.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

There are literally hundreds of DNA studies done on Jews showing that Ashkenazi Jews are roughly 40-60% Levantine but go on. Also there are 3.2 million Mizrahi Jews in Israel who come from Arab countries because the Arabs ethnically cleansed their countries of Jews after the foundation of Israel. Bunch of fairy tales tho.

Guess who is 100% Levantine?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Guess who is 100% Levantine?

I would imagine probably the Druze.

Edit: as Blankall stated, the Samaritans as well

Most Palestinians have a sizeable Arab component given the migration in the region. If you want to play genetic olympics or whose more indigenous do it with someone else. My only point in all of this is some posters seem to lack an understanding of Jews. Which I think is just a little bit important when discussing this conflict. I am not trying to downplay another groups historical ties to the land. I have maintained throughout this thread Palestinians are entitled to a state.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Guess who is 100% Levantine?

Genetic studies show a strong relationship between people of different religions. Muslims in the area, including Palestinians, share a lot of their DNA with groups from Arabia. Many Palestinians even trace their lineage directly back to various Arabian tribes. Additionally, prior to 1948, there were no hard borders and people moved freely around the Ottoman Empire. The definition of Palestinian only requires someone to have lived in the British Mandate of Palestine for 2 years to be considered a "Palestinian".

Once again, the idea of people changing religions is a new concept. Inter-marriage was extremely rare until recently. So you largely had Muslims marrying other Muslims and Jews marrying other Jews. This led to Muslims in the area having lots of ancestry from the dominant Muslim groups, who were from Arabia. Hence the genetic map above, which shows a large degree of cross-over between Palestinians and Arabian groups.

Palestinians do have Levantine history, but that varies from person to person. They weren't a homogenous group and essentially all non-Jews in the area got defined as Palestinians in 1948. The Palestinians are certainly not 100% Levantine, with some having arrived as migrant workers immediately before 1948.

The only group that likely has 100% Levantine origin are the Samaritans.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

blankall isn't talking to me.
If he was he would acknowledge or address his seven lies.
But how Israeli of you asking me to be quiet and allow the lies and false narrative to continue unchallenged.
And because we all hang onto every word of your posts and never skim over it.

The closest I have ever come to Israel is walking past the matzo crackers section in the Safeway on Oak and 25th, if you guys want to continue your pointless discourse fill your boots, I was just pointing out that, as is always the case when two posters get into an increasingly insular heated debate, most everyone else stops bothering to read either side, generally because at this point it's obvious you are both full of it trying to win at any cost and little either of you are saying is particularly measured or thought out, basically you guys have become a random crappy twitter thread without even the light relief of a half naked only fans ad somewhere down the page.

Carry on if it gives you pleasure though

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The closest I have ever come to Israel is walking past the matzo crackers section in the Safeway on Oak and 25th, if you guys want to continue your pointless discourse fill your boots, I was just pointing out that, as is always the case when two posters get into an increasingly insular heated debate, most everyone else stops bothering to read either side, generally because at this point it's obvious you are both full of it trying to win at any cost and little either of you are saying is particularly measured or thought out, basically you guys have become a random crappy twitter thread without even the light relief of a half naked only fans ad somewhere down the page.

Carry on if it gives you pleasure though

It's not a debate. Debates suggest some degree of honesty.
It's a correction of deliberate lies and an attempt to present a false narrative.
But very Israel of you to suggest how dare I point this out.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I would imagine probably the Druze.

Edit: as Blankall stated, the Samaritans as well

Most Palestinians have a sizeable Arab component given the migration in the region. If you want to play genetic olympics or whose more indigenous do it with someone else. My only point in all of this is some posters seem to lack an understanding of Jews. Which I think is just a little bit important when discussing this conflict. I am not trying to downplay play another groups historical ties to the land. I have maintained throughout this thread Palestinians are entitled to a state.

The Druze are actually a later version of Islam than the Shia or Sunni, arising in Egypt in 1017, using genetics to prove mythical ownership to land is a fools errand anyway, you can be fairly certain a fair chunk of jews didn't leave with the diaspora but converted to whatever conversion the Romans allowed, in the fullness of time became orthodox Christians and then Muslims eventually, there's a fair number of Palestinians who's ancestors would have been less than committed Jews a thousand years before

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The Druze are actually a later version of Islam than the Shia or Sunni, arising in Egypt in 1017, using genetics to prove mythical ownership to land is a fools errand anyway, you can be fairly certain a fair chunk of jews didn't leave with the diaspora but converted to whatever conversion the Romans allowed, in the fullness of time became orthodox Christians and then Muslims eventually, there's a fair number of Palestinians who's ancestors would have been less than committed Jews a thousand years before

I was thinking of the Samaritans but yes I do tend to agree with you. I am not a DNA expert though. My post was not attempting to do that, only to explain that Jews descend from the Levant and the historical legitimacy of that claim is very much legit. I did not bring up genetics to show why Jewish right to the land is superior, but that it is not a fairy tale that the Jews of today have a genealogical connection to the levant. Like I said, I am not trying to play genetic olympics here. Given the immense interest on this conflict I have seen many miss characterizations of Jews and often complete total lack of understanding of Jewish history. Jews get called colonizers, white settlers, religious supremacists and everything else under the sun. Somehow people feel entitled to re-write our own history for us.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I was thinking of the Samaritans but yes I do tend to agree with you. I am not a DNA expert though. My post was not attempting to do that, only to explain that Jews descend from the Levant and the historical legitimacy of that claim is very much legit. I did not bring up genetics to show why Jewish right to the land is superior, but that it is not a fairy tale that the Jews of today are a genealogical connection to the levant.

true, but so does everyone else, Greeks Italians, Turks, Iranians, Egyptians, in the end the person that has the right to the land is whoever is living on it right now if they can keep it