American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

So then you'd be in favour of a ban on gender reassignment surgery for anyone under 18? Also, aren't there hormone blockers being used now that cause irreversible changes to the body?



This is a stupid comparison. I don't have a polite way of saying that.

why cause you don't agree with it? for 3000 years we have happily been butchering childrens genitals at birth because the magic sky pixie in the sky said it was fine, I dont know whether gender reassignment at a younger age is the right thing to do or not, I do know though that you and that twat in Texas don't have an effing clue either it just tweaks your prejudices, I'm happy to leave the maybe 5 or 10 kids a year work this out with their parents and the doctors, meanwhile 30 to 40 kids a year in Texas die as a result of accidental gun discharges because they live in a house with an unfit parent, we know they do because they are dead, that's about as unfit as you get

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

why cause you don't agree with it? for 3000 years we have happily been butchering childrens genitals at birth because the magic sky pixie in the sky said it was fine

The comparison is dumb because one is people being in love and being together. The other is major physical and mental changes to individuals who can't buy beer or drive a car. I think circumcision is dumb too, and genital mutiliation. So, I deny you you're gotcha there, friend

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I do know though that you and that twat in Texas don't have an effing clue either it just tweaks your prejudices, I'm happy to leave the maybe 5 or 10 kids a year work this out with their parents and the doctors, meanwhile 30 to 40 kids a year in Texas die as a result of accidental gun discharges because they live in a house with an unfit parent, we know they do because they are dead, that's about as unfit as you get

... I don't understand this scatter shot approach. Are we talking about gender reassignment for children and major irreversible hormone therapy
or are we talking about guns and the bible? The ####?

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

So then you'd be in favour of a ban on gender reassignment surgery for anyone under 18? Also, aren't there hormone blockers being used now that cause irreversible changes to the body?

1) Read carefully. This isn't happening. Period. Stop making up bogeymen. There is no need to ban a practice that isn't happening.
2) Google is free. Since you're so adamantly against this, I assumed you were already an expert.
3. Again, I cannot stress enough, this is a process that takes a very long time with a lot of input from multiple doctors and mental health professionals. This isn't a 12 year old boy saying he wants to be a girl and in 3 weeks he's on meds. I trust that medical/mental health pros and parents know best what to do, not me or you.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

So then you'd be in favour of a ban on gender reassignment surgery for anyone under 18? Also, aren't there hormone blockers being used now that cause irreversible changes to the body?

This is a stupid comparison. I don't have a polite way of saying that.

Surgery is rarely, to the point I’m tempted to use “if ever” despite assuming there’s probably an exception out there, done under 18. Doctors recommend 18+ but often won’t do it until much later. Hormone therapy is recommended for age of consent, or around 16/17 and up but again, doctors often won’t do it until much later. Puberty blockers/suppressors can be used younger, obviously, but they are “reversible” in the sense that when the person stops taking them, puberty carries on.

Of course, lumping these all together as child abuse despite some of them being effective treatments for gender dysphoria and threatening to jail parents, teachers, doctors, nurses, dayhome providers, etc, is just a fundamentally insane thing to do.

[White Out 403]

How come no one wants to answer a simple question. Should gender reassignment surgery be banned for children? If it's not being done as is, then, why not close that off as an option and ensure it never is done?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

How come no one wants to answer a simple question. Should gender reassignment surgery be banned for children? If it's not being done as is, then, why not close that off as an option and ensure it never is done?

Maybe for a certain age, based on recommendations from the medical community. Considering that medical community is already keeping this in check, I’m not really sure why you’re obsessed with it being written into law. And I think most people are largely ignoring what you have say outside of trying to hold your hand through some level of understanding because you’re obviously uninformed and seeking attention (“flame away!” how brave!) so it seems at least somewhat questionable whether it’s worth engaging with you.

Thought exercise for you: your child has cancer. Surgery will be life altering and greatly diminish their quality of life, but without it, they would die. Does the child, parent, doctor, or lawmaker get to decide whether they have the surgery or not? And add a layer: the child doesn’t want the surgery, they are adamant they would rather die. Does that affect the decision?

[White Out 403]

The only thing I'm "obsessed" with is getting a straight answer from folks. Stop trying to make me sound like a harpy weirdo from foxnews. Lame. I'm neither uninformed, nor seeking attention. All these side show personal attacks and obfuscating of a simple premise is really telling. It's a one word answer. Yes or no.

Thought exercise for you: your child has cancer. Surgery will be life altering and greatly diminish their quality of life, but without it, they would die. Does the child, parent, doctor, or lawmaker get to decide whether they have the surgery or not? And add a layer: the child doesn’t want the surgery, they are adamant they would rather die. Does that affect the decision?

Are you asking me to tell you what the laws are now for this scenario, or, debate the laws and medical ethics of it?

What's really happening here is a bad faith argument from you and your "side". Instead of discussing the merits of the issue, the left swoops in and decides that above all else the appearance of trans rights must be protected at all costs. Whether or not gender reassignment surgery is a good ideas is secondary; the mere question of it would perhaps allow bad faith conservatives to take slippery slope arguments to their limits and then seek to deny rights of trans people. That's not what I'm engaging here. And until you can move past that we won't be able to have a serious discussion.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

The only thing I'm "obsessed" with is getting a straight answer from folks. Stop trying to make me sound like a harpy weirdo from foxnews. Lame. I'm neither uninformed, nor seeking attention. All these side show personal attacks and obfuscating of a simple premise is really telling. It's a one word answer. Yes or no.



Are you asking me to tell you what the laws are now for this scenario, or, debate the laws and medical ethics of it?

What's really happening here is a bad faith argument from you and your "side". Instead of discussing the merits of the issue, the left swoops in and decides that above all else the appearance of trans rights must be protected at all costs. Whether or not gender reassignment surgery is a good ideas is secondary; the mere question of it would perhaps allow bad faith conservatives to take slippery slope arguments to their limits and then seek to deny rights of trans people. That's not what I'm engaging here. And until you can move past that we won't be able to have a serious discussion.

Should any child be allowed any life altering surgery under any circumstance, is that a yes or no answer?

if so for me the answer is yes, I would allow children to have any life altering surgery that their doctors advised neccessary and parents gave permission for, it has sod all to do with the state, I dont want politicians deciding what medical procedures I or my children can have, I dont want them deciding that I cant have a blood transfusion because we get some wack job JW in charge either, I dont want the state having any say what so ever in what surgery that my doctor advises me to have.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

The only thing I'm "obsessed" with is getting a straight answer from folks. Stop trying to make me sound like a harpy weirdo from foxnews. Lame. I'm neither uninformed, nor seeking attention. All these side show personal attacks and obfuscating of a simple premise is really telling. It's a one word answer. Yes or no.



Are you asking me to tell you what the laws are now for this scenario, or, debate the laws and medical ethics of it?

What's really happening here is a bad faith argument from you and your "side". Instead of discussing the merits of the issue, the left swoops in and decides that above all else the appearance of trans rights must be protected at all costs. Whether or not gender reassignment surgery is a good ideas is secondary; the mere question of it would perhaps allow bad faith conservatives to take slippery slope arguments to their limits and then seek to deny rights of trans people. That's not what I'm engaging here. And until you can move past that we won't be able to have a serious discussion.

I answered your question. You going to keep throwing a fit and ranting about the left or are you going to answer mine?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

How come no one wants to answer a simple question. Should gender reassignment surgery be banned for children? If it's not being done as is, then, why not close that off as an option and ensure it never is done?

No, why should the government ban this particular medical procedure?

Is there evidence that the self regulated profession of medical doctors is incapable of making an case by case evidence based decision on the best course of treatment?

Is there evidence that this course of treatment is creating more negative outcomes then in absence of treatment?

What is the justification that the state should have input into this medical decision?

[LChoy]

To answer White Out question, No to banning gender confirming surgery for children
Main reason is that it would affect children born intersex, where surgery is performed at at an earlier age to match the most likely gender the child identifies and/or remove parts that are nonfunctional. It would also affect any rare but required genital surgery that may be required in kids

Otherwise the process that is currently established for surgery on transgender kids in Canada and some parts of the States are almost always occurring after the age of consent for irreversible surgical procedures

LChoy

[GirlySports]

I think the whole left-right spectrum is thrown out the window in the US, and it's almost all because of religion.

Theoretically, the right wants less government and the left wants more. But in the US, this is now totally flipped. The Democrats wants more globalization, the right wants America First. That's government getting involved.

The left wants freedom of expression, freedom of religion, the right wants to clamp down. That's also government getting involved.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

For me, it's always a completely ridiculous notion that I would or should somehow be able to evaluate what is going on between medical health professionals and their patients better than they could themselves.

Agreed. But the complexity and nuance of the issue is being ignored by trans activists as well as conservative politicians.

Transgender Docs Warn About Gender-Affirmative Care for Youth

Leading experts on transgender medicine are accusing trans activists of muffling their concerns about the quality of evaluations of adolescents and young adults with gender dysphoria…

The latest skirmish was set off by comments made by Marci Bowers, MD, president-elect of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health and Erica Anderson, PhD, president of the U.S. Professional Association for Transgender Health.

The comments have drawn controversy because of their claim that some adolescents are experiencing what has been dubbed "rapid-onset" gender dysphoria. The term was first coined in 2018 by researcher Lisa Littman, MD, MPH, president of the Institute for Comprehensive Gender Dysphoria Research...

However, many researchers acknowledge the phenomenon that it describes: A huge increase in the Western world of teenagers and young adults suddenly expressing a transgender identity seemingly out of the blue, when previously there had been no indication that they were uncomfortable with their biological sex.

This phenomenon has also been called late- or adolescent-onset gender dysphoria. It is different from earlier descriptions of gender dysphoria, which was primarily observed in younger children.

In their comments, Bowers and Anderson (both of whom are transgender themselves) criticize the quality of assessments and care for children and adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria.

Anderson, a clinical psychologist, said that "due to some of the -- I'll call it just 'sloppy' health care work -- that we're going to have more young adults who will regret having gone through this process."

https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationsh...ive-care-youth

The whole article is worth reading for anyone interested in understanding the issue beyond the stark battle-lines drawn on social media.

[White Out 403]

I reject the notion that this is life saving surgery like cancer treatment or heart surgery. Could it improve the lives of some? Yeah perhaps. but the evidence in that is also lacking. I'm too lazy to google it but I'm under the impression that suicide rates do not improve long term for people who get gender re-assignment surgery.

I also think it's a weak argument to suggest the state has no role here. The state is certainly expected to protect children in other areas; children can't consent to sexual relations with adults; children can't enter in contracts; children can't buy alcohol, the list goes on.

I support the trans community and whatever adults want to do in consultation with medical professionals is fine by me. That support ends with certain treatments that are irreversible, which includes some hormone blockers. Someone mentioned, very disingenuously earlier , that need only stop taking hormone blockers and puberty continues. Well that's not the case all the time. If you take these hormone blockers for your entire teenage years your body will never be the same and you can't unring that bell.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I reject the notion that this is life saving surgery like cancer treatment or heart surgery. Could it improve the lives of some? Yeah perhaps. but the evidence in that is also lacking. I'm too lazy to google it but I'm under the impression that suicide rates do not improve long term for people who get gender re-assignment surgery.

I also think it's a weak argument to suggest the state has no role here. The state is certainly expected to protect children in other areas; children can't consent to sexual relations with adults; children can't enter in contracts; children can't buy alcohol, the list goes on.

I support the trans community and whatever adults want to do in consultation with medical professionals is fine by me. That support ends with certain treatments that are irreversible, which includes some hormone blockers. Someone mentioned, very disingenuously earlier , that need only stop taking hormone blockers and puberty continues. Well that's not the case all the time. If you take these hormone blockers for your entire teenage years your body will never be the same and you can't unring that bell.

Your entire argument is disingenuous if you’re not willing to find out whether this actually has any quantifiable detrimental effect on youth that had gone through with it.

The ability to buy alcohol is not what delineates the age where you can make decisions for yourself.

I think you’re just tilting at windmills here.

[Ozy_Flame]

White Out 403, I would encourage you to reach out and discuss the issue with medical specialists engaged in the transgender community. Dr. Joe Raiche, a Calgary-based psychiatrist specializing in transgender issues with youth and adults and would probably be an excellent resource. I think it might be helpful to hear from someone who works directly with these folks and the complex issues they go through.

This article is from 2019, but the context provided even from an Alberta perspective is one that clearly shows there is a demand for transgender services and (at least at the time) did not have enough funding. This can not only include gender-affirming surgery, but also things like hormone therapy and general mental health care.

Head of program’s resignation raises questions about accessibility to transgender care in Alberta

I don't want to derail this thread, but thought it was worth bringing up given the conversation at hand.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I'm too lazy to google it but I'm under the impression that suicide rates do not improve long term for people who get gender re-assignment surgery.

"I haven't done any research on this topic, but I still have strong feelings about it." Beautiful.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by rubecube

"I haven't done any research on this topic, but I still have strong feelings about it." Beautiful.

I didn't say I didn't do the "research" I said that I didn't want to be bothered to google #### I've already read. But fine, here you go

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0016885

Large 30 year study in Sweden.

Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Yeah perhaps. but the evidence in that is also lacking. I'm too lazy to google it but I'm under the impression that suicide rates do not improve long term for people who get gender re-assignment surgery.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...study-n1079911

But among trans people who had undergone gender-affirming surgery, the longer ago their surgery, the less likely they were to suffer anxiety, depression or suicidal behavior during the study period, researchers reported in The American Journal of Psychiatry.

Evidence seems to suggest if you're going to get it, get it quicker.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I didn't say I didn't do the "research" I said that I didn't want to be bothered to google #### I've already read. But fine, here you go

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0016885

Large 30 year study in Sweden.

So you post a study that says in the effing conclusion you posted that gender reassignment surgery is a good thing but that it needs to be associated with more after care counselling and other supportive interventions, you post this immediatly after a post where you randomly bring up child sex abuse for some reason, what comes next, no gay teachers because you know they cant be trusted with kids?