Francis: Tire Fire

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

And I still maintain you simply cannot say they traded Hamonic for whatever pick because if they didn't have Hamonic they would be almost assuredly in a different spot in the standings. It is an emotional and irrational way of looking at things. Which you are entitled to do but I don't get it.

Would they though? With zero emotion involved, I can't really see this team being anymore or less than 4-5 points positive/negative with or without Hamonic this season. This is of course assuming that the Flames would have plunked Stone into that spot and allowed for someone else to play his role with Kulak (Bart, Rasmus, Wotherspoon, FA).

[Beninho]

The problem with trading first round picks is that there are so many variables that go into a season. No team is ever a lock to make it and Treliving gambled with what he thought was a strong hand and he lost (for this season at least). It’s quite frustrating when our President of hockey ops made the same mistake with the Maple Leafs...

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think the GM should be let off the hook for this. He's the architect of the team. He picked (and whiffed on) this coach that oversaw a team that was pretty healthy compared to a lot of teams over the course of the season and they were losing games to inferior teams at home long before injuries became a big problem at the end of the season. It's his job to be considering every angle and it's a bit worrisome that he had that much faith in a head coach that clearly had a lot of warts and that he massively overvalued defense while ignoring the team's offensive needs. My confidence in this GM is shaken and he's going to need a very good offseason which starts with getting an improved coaching staff and rectifying the dire situation on RW.

I mean at the end of last season, did you not also feel that the team was a couple pieces away? (More than anything a goalie and a bit tighter on D, maybe a RW but not as high of a priority at that time)

I think most people felt that our team was almost there and didn't expect the team to crash this hard. Can't expect the GM to be a fortune teller otherwise we would always be a Stanley Cup winning team every year.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Would they though? With zero emotion involved, I can't really see this team being anymore or less than 4-5 points positive/negative with or without Hamonic this season. This is of course assuming that the Flames would have plunked Stone into that spot and allowed for someone else to play his role with Kulak (Bart, Rasmus, Wotherspoon, FA).

Any deviation changes how the balls fall

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

I mean at the end of last season, did you not also feel that the team was a couple pieces away? (More than anything a goalie and a bit tighter on D, maybe a RW but not as high of a priority at that time)

I think most people felt that our team was almost there and didn't expect the team to crash this hard. Can't expect the GM to be a fortune teller otherwise we would always be a Stanley Cup winning team every year.

I felt the roster was close but you can go back the past few years in that a few of us here have not been pleased about the lack of attention paid to RW and I thought bringing in Hamonic was a luxury move given the defensive depth in the organization compared to skilled wingers. I definitely would have done things differently last offseason season and I've never had a lot of faith in Gulutzan.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Beninho

The problem with trading first round picks is that there are so many variables that go into a season. No team is ever a lock to make it and Treliving gambled with what he thought was a strong hand and he lost (for this season at least). It’s quite frustrating when our President of hockey ops made the same mistake with the Maple Leafs...

Agreed.

If you're going to trade a first I feel like it should always be like the Hamilton deal - where you know what you're giving up.

I for the most part like Treliving as a GM but not getting some type of lottery protection or at least a choice to defer the pick to next year is probably his biggest mistake as GM of the team.

Those clauses have become quite common and not getting one is crazy.

Originally Posted by smiggy77

I mean at the end of last season, did you not also feel that the team was a couple pieces away? (More than anything a goalie and a bit tighter on D, maybe a RW but not as high of a priority at that time)

I think most people felt that our team was almost there and didn't expect the team to crash this hard. Can't expect the GM to be a fortune teller otherwise we would always be a Stanley Cup winning team every year.

Nah. I think after the acquisition of Stone, and with Kulak looking okay on the bottom pairing that most felt Forward was the bigger organizational need. Especially with Andersson, Fox, Kylington, and Valimaki in the organization still.

It's not revisionist history either, below was my first post in the Hamilton trade thread.

I don't mind it but personally don't think it was a big enough need to go spend all our assets on Hamonic.

Demers, Franson, etc are all available for a much cheaper acquisition cost and are good enough.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I felt the roster was close but you can go back the past few years in that a few of us here have not been pleased about the lack of attention paid to RW and I thought bringing in Hamonic was a luxury move given the defensive depth in the organization compared to skilled wingers. I definitely would have done things differently last offseason season and I've never had a lot of faith in Gulutzan.

At the end of last season, we had Wideman on his way out, Engelland just got picked up by Vegas in their draft, and Wotherspoon and Kulak who struggled hard and couldn't crack a spot on the roster. Even now, I don't think we have defensive depth ready to crack the NHL full time. We've got Kulak who is still likely good for a 5th or 6th D spot with maybe Andersson knocking on the door for the 6th. No one else would be ready for full time NHL time.

At the time, we definitely needed another top 4 defenseman, with Hamonic being an upgrade to both Wideman and Engelland.

Agreed that the RW situation has been a bit of an issue but without losing a piece of the core, all Tre had was this year's 1st, to either spend on fixing the D situation or adding in a RW. I think they had stock in Versteeg and Ferland continuing their production or growing into this season, as well as Bennett having more offense.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Would they though? With zero emotion involved, I can't really see this team being anymore or less than 4-5 points positive/negative with or without Hamonic this season. This is of course assuming that the Flames would have plunked Stone into that spot and allowed for someone else to play his role with Kulak (Bart, Rasmus, Wotherspoon, FA).

The game is so dynamic, you can't look at it that simply.

It's like saying, adding Connor McDavid on your roster should give you a 30 point swing, well it clearly doesn't.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

At the end of last season, we had Wideman on his way out, Engelland just got picked up by Vegas in their draft, and Wotherspoon and Kulak who struggled hard and couldn't crack a spot on the roster. Even now, I don't think we have defensive depth ready to crack the NHL full time. We've got Kulak who is still likely good for a 5th or 6th D spot with maybe Andersson knocking on the door for the 6th. No one else would be ready for full time NHL time.

At the time, we definitely needed another top 4 defenseman, with Hamonic being an upgrade to both Wideman and Engelland.

Agreed that the RW situation has been a bit of an issue but without losing a piece of the core, all Tre had was this year's 1st, to either spend on fixing the D situation or adding in a RW. I think they had stock in Versteeg and Ferland continuing their production or growing into this season, as well as Bennett having more offense.

Stone and Brodie were playing well enough together at the end last season and I would have simply brought in a cheap (that wasn't an ex-Canuck or Star) vet in free agency to split 5/6 with Kulak and Andersson. It's pretty clear that Andersson could have probably played in the bottom 6 this season without hurting the team that much. You have to expect that there would be some tough sledding but I think the coach could have simply rode his top four harder.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Agreed.

If you're going to trade a first I feel like it should always be like the Hamilton deal - where you know what you're giving up.

I for the most part like Treliving as a GM but not getting some type of lottery protection or at least a choice to defer the pick to next year is probably his biggest mistake as GM of the team.

Those clauses have become quite common and not getting one is crazy.



Nah. I think after the acquisition of Stone, and with Kulak looking okay on the bottom pairing that most felt Forward was the bigger organizational need. Especially with Andersson, Fox, Kylington, and Valimaki in the organization still.

It's not revisionist history either, below was my first post in the Hamilton trade thread.

Wideman was on his way out and we just lost Englland to the expansion draft. We had a pretty big hole in our Top 4 and the depth wasn't there otherwise we would have seen more time from the kids. At the end of last season, Kulak did not look like a full time NHLer yet. Wotherspoon was on a brutal decline, Fox was still in school, and Valimaki was being drafted that day.

Depth is there but it's a few seasons out, I don't think any of those guys are even ready for full time NHL time for next season (other than Kulak in the 5th or 6th D spots).

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

At the time, we definitely needed another top 4 defenseman, with Hamonic being an upgrade to both Wideman and Engelland.

Except ...he isn’t.

Engelland was underrated.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Wideman was on his way out and we just lost Englland to the expansion draft. We had a pretty big hole in our Top 4 and the depth wasn't there otherwise we would have seen more time from the kids. At the end of last season, Kulak did not look like a full time NHLer yet. Wotherspoon was on a brutal decline, Fox was still in school, and Valimaki was being drafted that day.

Depth is there but it's a few seasons out, I don't think any of those guys are even ready for full time NHL time for next season (other than Kulak in the 5th or 6th D spots).

The argument isn't that they needed more depth on D (they did) it's that they could have helped the defense without spending a 1st and 2 2nds.

Kulikov, Franson, Demers, Mueller, Hjalmarsson, Trevor van Riemsdyk, Methot, Emelin were all moved this past offseason for less than the 1st and 2 2nds the Flames paid.

Treliving made the mistake of being impatient and overpaying for Hamonic before the market for d-men collapsed after the first couple days of free agency and with Vegas having way too many d-men.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Agreed.

If you're going to trade a first I feel like it should always be like the Hamilton deal - where you know what you're giving up.

I for the most part like Treliving as a GM but not getting some type of lottery protection or at least a choice to defer the pick to next year is probably his biggest mistake as GM of the team.

Those clauses have become quite common and not getting one is crazy.

That can be seen both ways though.

They talked trade on day one but Treliving refused to move his 16th overall pick in the 2017 draft because they liked what they thought they were going to get ... Valimaki and likely a name or two.

That versus the 2018 pick, where the draft is considered inferior, and he he had his team moving up into the top ten in all likelihood making the pick say 20th overall instead of 16th.

So down four spots in the draft, and the draft down from the current year.

It wasn't a bad bet.

And I guess Valimaki vs what the Islanders take would be a fair comparison given that dynamic.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

Didn't mean to nitpick, but shouldn't it be 20/20? 20/20 = perfect vision? Anyhow, I agree the rest of the post.

Yes, yes it should. Apparently I'm doing too many things at once to be ranting on hockey forums

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Except ...he isn’t.

Engelland was underrated.

Engelland was underrated.

Hamonic is better than Engelland.

Both statements are true.


As far as the pick goes, I actually hope the Islanders win it with our pick. Partially, because it means that the Oilers, Canucks and Blackhawks don't get Dahlin. But partially because Brad Treliving deserves to sit there, in Dallas, and watch the Isles make that pick because he (a) failed to lottery protect the pick and (b) remained far too loyal to a bad coaching staff.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The argument isn't that they needed more depth on D (they did) it's that they could have helped the defense without spending a 1st and 2 2nds.

Kulikov, Franson, Demers, Mueller, Hjalmarsson, Trevor van Riemsdyk, Methot, Emelin were all moved this past offseason for less than the 1st and 2 2nds the Flames paid.

Treliving made the mistake of being impatient and overpaying for Hamonic before the market for d-men collapsed after the first couple days of free agency and with Vegas having way too many d-men.

Out of your list, the only one I would want to get on based on the price was Trevor van Riemsdyk or Emelin. Maybe Methot but it's questionable if he's able to be at Top 4 D without Karlsson.

Kulikov, Demers, and Hjalmarsson all would have costed a roster player or one of our solid depth guys like Andersson, Fox, or Kylington.

Franson's not even in the NHL anymore.

It makes sense to unload draft picks to get a player but I think fans put more stock into draft picks than GM's. They're still unknown assets.

[Locke]

Well what the hell has been happening in here?!?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That can be seen both ways though.

They talked trade on day one but Treliving refused to move his 16th overall pick in the 2017 draft because they liked what they thought they were going to get ... Valimaki and likely a name or two.

That versus the 2018 pick, where the draft is considered inferior, and he he had his team moving up into the top ten in all likelihood making the pick say 20th overall instead of 16th.

So down four spots in the draft, and the draft down from the current year.

It wasn't a bad bet.

And I guess Valimaki vs what the Islanders take would be a fair comparison given that dynamic.

I think there should be a process to that though.

1)2017 Pick - they really like Valimaki so no deal.

That's fair.

2) 2018 Pick - but if you're going to use that you better damn well make sure it's lottery protected or at the very least top 5 protected.

He made a mistake. That's fair to say here.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That can be seen both ways though.

They talked trade on day one but Treliving refused to move his 16th overall pick in the 2017 draft because they liked what they thought they were going to get ... Valimaki and likely a name or two.

That versus the 2018 pick, where the draft is considered inferior, and he he had his team moving up into the top ten in all likelihood making the pick say 20th overall instead of 16th.

So down four spots in the draft, and the draft down from the current year.

It wasn't a bad bet.

And I guess Valimaki vs what the Islanders take would be a fair comparison given that dynamic.

This is what i don't understand. The Flames were easily swept from the 1st round and then acquired an older goaltender to run as the #1 and an underperforming Dman to fill out the top 4. I don't see what basis BT had for assuming top ten this year - its like the Flames thought falsely like many others here that somehow the california teams would just drop off ... instead i think each of those three teams have several years in them yet with their current rosters which means bad things for Calgary unless some real changes or drastic improvements internally are made here.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The argument isn't that they needed more depth on D (they did) it's that they could have helped the defense without spending a 1st and 2 2nds.

Kulikov, Franson, Demers, Mueller, Hjalmarsson, Trevor van Riemsdyk, Methot, Emelin were all moved this past offseason for less than the 1st and 2 2nds the Flames paid.

Treliving made the mistake of being impatient and overpaying for Hamonic before the market for d-men collapsed after the first couple days of free agency and with Vegas having way too many d-men.

There are two ways to look at it:

1) Hamonic is a substantially better player than those guys, so it was a good deal by Treliving.

2) Hamonic is about the same quality of player as Kulikov, Demers, Hjalmarsson, etc, and Treliving overpaid.

Personally, I think it's 2 and you're bang on the money for why Treliving made the deal - impatience. The only question is how much of that impatience was at the behest of an ownership desperate for the team to make a playoff run to increase support for an arena.