YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It's funny* how close this thread has come to scoring a full card on internet sexism bingo.

Spoiler!

*Not really

I think there at least a couple of bingos on there.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

Been thinking about this since I last posted, a lot.

In my previous post, I had said that it really was the comments that got to me. But as I think more about it (and as I did, I actually went and looked at the YLYL thread again), I realized that's not true.

Because even if it's just pictures, it's still objectification. And at the core, that bothers me.

Even as I think about some of the arguments used in support of the thread, such as "what's wrong with appreciating the female form?" or "at least then it's restricted to one place, not all over the forum."

Those statements, in and of themselves, are extremely objectifying. To appreciate the form, the body ... that's not appreciating the person / woman. That's objectifying her, as an object to be appreciated. Restricting it to one place? Really? That suggests that objectifying women is okay - and you're just being polite by keeping it localized to that one thread.

Now, some will say (and have said), "well, the girls have had a thread of hot guys, you know!" or "well, why don't you just have a hot guys thread, then?"

That doesn't solve the issue of objectification. It expands it. I also looked at the 'hot guys draft' thread. It bothered me, too.

Finally, a few people have made the comment "If you want to look at hot women, you can do so lots of other places on the web. Why do you have to be able to do it here?" I agree with the sentiment, but would go further. In my opinion, when you start posting pictures of hot guys/gals here, you are no longer just passively objectifying them - you are actively propagating the notion that objectifying them is okay. You are going out of your way to collect and share images, with no context or purpose other than to share a 'hot body'. That, by definition, is objectification. And I don't see why CP as a community has to be a place where objectification of men or women is promoted.

I realize I'm probably in the minority, even of the other gals here. But the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. So, there you have it :-)

I can appreciate this. If we, as a group, are trying to hold ourselves to a higher standard than what happens in the rest of the world, then I can get behind that, as long as we do it together and not a "he said, she said" kind of argument.

I am skeptical though, it's incredibly hard to do so and there will always be posts you don't appreciate. My advice is to be critical to the post without damning the person's character. Too often we associate something we don't like with the person being "bad".

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

For those arguing in favor of keeping the thread what's the reasoning?

I personally couldn't care less about it existing, but it does seem odd to close a thread due to 3-4 members of CP who have focally voiced that they are against the thread in it's existence as a whole.
This is out of a community of thousands of members, in a thread that will specifically attract those against the thread.

Almost all posters have voiced discomfort and feeling insulted by some of the commentary, attitudes and certain images in the thread; but a very small group has suggested the thread overall needs to be shut down completely.
Even most of the female posters who have commented, have said they don't really mind the thread itself existing.

If the powers at CP want to close it I'm all in support, and I respect the opinion of those that want the thread closed completely (their right to feel that way), but it seems like finding a solution in the wrong place IMO, when cleaning up the content and comments would appease 99% of the community.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I personally couldn't care less about it existing, but it does seem odd to close a thread due to 3-4 members of CP who have focally voiced that they are against the thread in it's existence as a whole.
This is out of a community of thousands of members, in a thread that will specifically attract those against the thread.

Almost all posters have voiced discomfort and feeling insulted by some of the commentary, attitudes and certain images in the thread; but a very small group has suggested the thread overall needs to be shut down completely.
Even most of the female posters who have commented, have said they don't really mind the thread itself existing.

If the powers at CP want to close it I'm all in support, and I respect the opinion of those that want the thread closed completely (their right to feel that way), but it seems like finding a solution in the wrong place IMO, when cleaning up the content and comments would appease 99% of the community.

if it offends even one person to this extent, i think it's important to consider the removal of the thread.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I personally couldn't care less about it existing, but it does seem odd to close a thread due to 3-4 members of CP who have focally voiced that they are against the thread in it's existence as a whole.
This is out of a community of thousands of members, in a thread that will specifically attract those against the thread.

Almost all posters have voiced discomfort and feeling insulted by some of the commentary, attitudes and certain images in the thread; but a very small group has suggested the thread overall needs to be shut down completely.
Even most of the female posters who have commented, have said they don't really mind the thread itself existing.

If the powers at CP want to close it I'm all in support, and I respect the opinion of those that want the thread closed completely (their right to feel that way), but it seems like finding a solution in the wrong place IMO, when cleaning up the content and comments would appease 99% of the community.

This is exactly how I feel.

I think there's been some reasonable discussion in this thread. I think there are some issues that I didn't even know existed (eg. turning random threads into hot woman threads), so awareness has been raised for sure.

Frankly, at this point it's the white knights (not naming any names) just being offended for someone else and taking the issue far past the scope of this thread.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

if it offends even one person to this extent, i think it's important to consider the removal of the thread.

I think that's pretty extreme.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Frankly, at this point it's the white knights (not naming any names) just being offended for someone else and taking the issue far past the scope of this thread.

Invoking a term like "white knight" pretty much demonstrates you either don't understand the perspective of those you're debating, or have a poor conception of empathy. Save that crap for 4chan and redpill.

[_Q_]

Man the anti YLYL thread minority are quite militant and I'm not sure why.

I still see nothing wrong with that thread, even the majority of the comments aren't that bad (in my opinion of couese). I think that thread should be treated as any other thread, ie. On a case by case basis for the comments.

I really will accept the decision of the mods on this one, but I sincerely hope their decision isn't based on the opinions of the very vocal minority.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Man the anti YLYL thread minority are quite militant and I'm not sure why.

I still see nothing wrong with that thread, even the majority of the comments aren't that bad (in my opinion of couese). I think that thread should be treated as any other thread, ie. On a case by case basis for the comments.

I really will accept the decision of the mods on this one, but I sincerely hope their decision isn't based on the opinions of the very vocal minority.

Yeah because where else can you go for tittie pics, right?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Yeah because where else can you go for tittie pics, right?

Well I can definitely go somewhere else for them. But that's not the point. The point is, those pictures are legal under Canadian laws and don't violate Calgarypuck's policies. In other words, the jurisdiction in which you live in as well as the forum you're posting in deems those "tittie pics" as legal and non offensive. It is therefore implied that it's acceptable to distribute and comment about those pictures freely within Calgarypuck's terms of use.

If you're offended by a certain comment or picture, you're within your rights to report the post and let the mods deal with it on a case by case basis.

[ResAlien]

Legal ≠ non offensive

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well I can definitely go somewhere else for them. But that's not the point. The point is, those pictures are legal under Canadian laws and don't violate Calgarypuck's policies. In other words, the jurisdiction in which you live in as well as the forum you're posting in deems those "tittie pics" as legal and non offensive. It is therefore implied that it's acceptable to distribute and comment about those pictures freely within Calgarypuck's terms of use.

If you're offended by a certain comment or picture, you're within your rights to report the post and let the mods deal with it on a case by case basis.

Law and rules should be fluid and changing as needed.

[photon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

But that's not the point. The point is, those pictures are legal under Canadian laws and don't violate Calgarypuck's policies.

The question isn't if the pics are legal or if they violate current policies. The question was are they sexist and is the thread itself sexist.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by _Q_

...don't violate Calgarypuck's policies...

FYI, we're effectively having a discussion about whether that CP policies should change.

So you know, literally everybody already knows that it's not against the CP policy right now.

And yeah, there's lots of legal things that are not allowed on this board.

[_Q_]

^^ yup and I just realized that. Not sure what I was arguing. My apologies.

But I kind of stand by my notion that if it's legal, it doesn't have to be banned on here. I also realize that some legal stuff like porn and extreme violence are banned on CP. Maybe something like "is the material socially acceptable in public?" For example, I can see plenty of material similar to the stuff in that thread when I go to the mall or turn on the TV. So why is it that it should be banned on CP?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by _Q_

^^ yup and I just realized that. Not sure what I was arguing. My apologies.

But I kind of stand by my notion that if it's legal, it doesn't have to be banned on here. I also realize that some legal stuff like porn and extreme violence are banned on CP. Maybe something like "is the material socially acceptable in public?" For example, I can see plenty of material similar to the stuff in that thread when I go to the mall or turn on the TV. So why is it that it should be banned on CP?

Well do we really want to derail this thread into further discourse on the portrayals and objectification of women for media and marketing?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by _Q_

But I kind of stand by my notion that if it's legal, it doesn't have to be banned on here.

That's more or less the site-wide moderation policy of Reddit, and it's caused large portions of it to become vile cesspools representing the worst of the Internet. In fairness, not every individual subreddit has such lax moderation standards, but I can't imagine that's the direction Bingo wants to take CP.

I also realize that some legal stuff like porn and extreme violence are banned on CP. Maybe something like "is the material socially acceptable in public?" For example, I can see plenty of material similar to the stuff in that thread when I go to the mall or turn on the TV. So why is it that it should be banned on CP?

I think you're getting closer with this comment, but I'd suggest a better standard should be "is this topic safe for work?" The occasional image or video safely hidden behind a NSFW tag is fine, but that entire thread is not work safe.

I personally find it a bit perplexing that CP has a site-wide filter that bans curse words like f--- and s--- because apparently those cross the line but there's no problem at all with posting thousands of borderline softcore photos of scantily-clad women.

[Chill Cosby]

Apologise for the long post. You can more or less skip it if you aren't Cali or aren't looking for clarification on an earlier comment I made.

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I…I don't even know how to respond to this. You think that anything I've said resembles you name calling people you have a disagreement with? That's a really immature response.

You don't know how to respond? Well, if I could make a suggestion, I would tone down the condescending rhetoric, avoid phrases like "Tough to handle, but that's the way the world works" if you want to eliminate said condescension, not tell someone you can't appeal to others by insulting them while calling them "immature" in the midst of your pervasive condescension, and overall, being the example of how you want someone to act, not the example of how not to act. The term "Glass Houses" wouldn't come up while you're lecturing others on how to have a conversation on a message board if the lecture wasn't unashamedly hypocritical, and while my own missteps may be fully realised, it's unbecoming and a bit ridiculous to lecture someone on the very things you're guilty of yourself.

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I don't know how you see it that way, that seems to be the point of this discussion. How to make things more inclusive and be less unintentionally offensive. You, on the other hand, seem to act like a martyr throughout this thread, fighting "the good fight", no matter what people actually are saying to you. You're mad at the way our society is constructed, not what individuals are doing or saying, so stop going after individual people. And, even if they say something you don't agree with or might be a little backward, do not talk to them like they are 5 years old because they just "don't get it". It's condescending and completely inaccurate. They get it, they just don't agree with you. Tough to handle, I know, but that's the way the world works.

Again, "offence" is not the issue. It's a bi-product of the issue, but it's not what is being discussed. Saying "offence" is the main issue is similar to claiming Racism or Homophobia are bad just because they're "offensive." For more on what the issue IS, see below (from actual women and a moderator, if you're curious):

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Studies have shown that when men look at women in bikinis, the brain activity is not that of dealing with an entity capable of critical thinking, but instead that of an object, a tool. That's not overt sexism in these men, necessarily, but it's the way society has trained men to view women. Possessions, trophies, objects to be attained.

Originally Posted by Peanut

Yes it's the objectification that veers into misogyny (presenting a woman as a trophy, decoration, or otherwise removing the more "human" characteristics of a woman, such as her face, and presenting them only as a sex object). I believe that falls within the definition of misogyny but I'm no means an expert.

Originally Posted by photon

My original question wasn't really about if something was offensive, it was if it was misogynistic. As in contributing to the cultural issues around the equality of women by continuing to promote objectification of women. Which would of course lead to it being offensive to many, but the offensiveness wasn't the starting point.

It's not about if it's offensive. It is offensive. According to you, the offended are a small minority that you find it frustrating to cater to, so I see why your more interested in the defence of "offence", but unfortunately that isn't the issue. It's not about making the place "less offensive" but rather how to curb misogyny and sexism. It being "less offensive" would be an obvious result.

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

You assume way too much here. I'm upset because you used horrible words to describe men you disagree with, insofar as to make them seem incapable of having the basic intelligence to be more than a grunting caveman. That, right there, is sexist because you are judging these men to be incapable of understanding or learning and are reducing them to a purely physical being with no brain. You also assume that anyone that is offended by those words is also "one of those". If you can't see the problem with that then YOU'RE missing the point now. It's sexism bordering on misandry.

This just in: Calling a misogynist a "lonely boy" is Misandry.

Isn't it a bit silly to make stated assumptions on what you think others are assuming? Considering half of your issues would be avoided had to you avoided rampant assumption. As I already alluded to, my comments were directed to no one in particular, and certainly not "anyone" who disagrees with me, nor any specific poster on the board. I do not know their story or what they think, I'm basing everything on snippets, so it would be ignorant of me to make a character judgement on anyone as a whole. I created a simplistic fiction, and insulted that fiction. If I wanted to name names, I would have. If I wanted someone to know, then they would know. If someone found offence in my statement, then it certainly came from within. Again, why would you be offended by me calling a fictitious misogynist a "Neanderthal"? Are you a misogynist? Or do you self-identify with misogynists? If not, I can't see why you would be offended, I assume you would probably agree.

In the end, I admitted my words were chosen poorly, childish, not specifically intended for anyone, and at best a throwing up of the arms out of frustration. It had been a long day, and I took an ill-advised step. I'm certainly not the perfect human, but I aim to be better and apologise when I stumble. I explained myself, and took the original lump that called out my post... so what's your excuse? Tired of a "martyr" defending women, so you took your shot when you saw a weak spot? Decided you might try a rile him up again? See if he says something else he'll again admit to regretting?

How brilliantly noble and intellectual of you. If you want to talk to each other like intellectuals, a good place to start would be at the start. Can we get back to the topic, whether that be misogyny or just "offence" resulting from the YLYL thread and the culture around it? I'm certainly happy to, I've said all I can say about this rubbish.

[taco.vidal]

The models voluntarily posed for the photos. These arent creep shots or pictures stilen from hacked accounts. You dont think the models know that men and even women are going to critique, oggle, fantasize to, etc these photos. Clearly some of the posters in this thread have a problem with the photos even though the models dont.
Stay out of thread if you dont want to see it. Users are respectful enough to not have nude avatars etc. Do your heads explode when you open a magazine and see add? How about ads in the mall or commercials on tv?

[photon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

So why is it that it should be banned on CP?

Just because it's permissible doesn't mean it is desirable. I'd rather CP be at the forefront of promoting equality rather than being the place people go to when everywhere else doesn't accept them (i.e. racist, homophobic, sexist are just a few examples).