YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by GGG

I agree with you here but it is in direct contridiction with what the marketer is doing. Especially with models andwith actresses doing a maxim spread. They are trying to sell the model as the product and get you to associate the product with the model. They want you to buy the product as a proxy to purchasing the model. In the case of actresses in maxim type magizines they are very clearly selling themselves in order to make money or promote a movie they are in.

So the industry producing the pictures is most definately trying to sell women as objects. I might be convincing myself that the pictures themselves are the problem and not just the comments

Actually in this case Maxim is paying the models/actresses to sell their magazine. Their publicists are telling their clients to take the money and do the spread to sell more tickets to the movies or calendars or whatever. The model is not the product, the magazine is. They can also sell more adspace in the magazine depending on who they end up with on the cover.

[Mr.Coffee]

To me this thread seems like an enormous minefield, maybe that's why there's been so much debate.

I think that ultimately, all any of the female posters or others that feel the thread should be shut down want- based on what I'm reading into their pretty reasonable posts is- respect.

It isn't shocking that people want a little respect or class shown their way for whatever reason. It's not a difficult concept and it's pretty easy to see why some of the comments in that thread specifically but elsewhere seem disrespectful.

This coming from a guy that voted to keep it, and ultimately really don't even care that much as I don't frequent the thread much anyway. Actually upon reflection... not even sure why I bothered voting. Maybe because this thread is somewhat interesting. Shutting it down seemed a bit extreme to me.

Basically, try not to be a dbag and be respectful to women. It's not hard.

[calgarybornnraised]

As a women on CalPuck I feel the need for proper "language" is a great concern. I understand this is a male driven site, but you have women that love the Flames and love Hockey. yes we venture out of the Fire on Ice forum , but I love the fact I get Calgary news here. I have been told many times I don't know Hockey because I am a girl. I think we have a space here and let us try.


P.S. Im a lurker not a poster.

I voted too keep it but moderate.

[Tinordi]

For those arguing in favor of keeping the thread what's the reasoning?

[Mr.Coffee]

they like checking out hot chicks?

[Tinordi]

And why can't they just use Google image search or the thousands of other sites to do so without alienating a small but important part of the community?

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by woob

Oh Chill - You can't go chastising people about their right to judge and such and then do the exact same thing yourself. Your argument kind of loses steam and you look a bit hypocritical.



Or is it the ol' "me calling a group of guys names is ok because rampant sexism, misogyny, etc!"?

Yeah, point noted.

It's probably unnecessary to get into the name-calling zone, but I had reached a general boiling point concerning the repeated disrespect of women in this thread, so I acted out a little bit childishly, which is why I chilled for a while.

It's not strictly about judgement, it's about treating women more like products and objects instead of human beings. If me being rude to those who do that robbed my point of any validity, then I suppose that's on me.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

And why can't they just use Google image search or the thousands of other sites to do so without alienating a small but important part of the community?

I have no idea, I'm sure users could go to other websites. Why can't people here just be respectful of women?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

If that chapped your ass, I'd hate to see how you would've reacted to the more apt "Neanderthal" or "Cave Dweller" which came a close second and third. That said I'm not too concerned, as anyone offended by the comment is likely guilty of the original offence to which I speak, and likely guilty of much worse labels than "Lonely boy".

This is now more offensive than anything I've read in the YLYL thread. Congratulations, you've sabotaged your own objective.

I think this is the point, that anyone can say something stupid and hurtful without meaning to. It's where the moderators are given power to warn, delete, and ban members if need be. That's the only real answer to this, that and asking people again to try and remain respectful at all times.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

This is now more offensive than anything I've read in the YLYL thread. Congratulations, you've sabotaged your own objective.



I think this is the point, that anyone can say something stupid and hurtful without meaning to. It's where the moderators are given power to warn, delete, and ban members if need be. That's the only real answer to this, that and asking people again to try and remain respectful at all times.

Glass houses.

Honestly, if you think the objective or point was "don't be mean to girls" or being "offensive" is bad then you really weren't even investing in the point in the first place, nor showing any signs of even beginning to see the issue, so it's hard for me to address you with the same gravity you desire.

If your point is that people can say something without meaning to be mean, well, I'm not sure quoting me helps you, because I fully meant to be mean (specifically to misogynists and sexists, to be fair). When someone says "Well I paid for that woman, so I have the right to judge her" or looks at a random picture of an Asian woman and says "Probably hard to hear anything over the sound of cash registers" then yeah, maybe they didn't "mean" to be cruel, but they're being a lot worse than cruel.

Are you one of those people? Someone who thinks he has a level of ownership over a woman? That she is a product which he buys and sells at his leisure? If not, then I'm not sure what you found offensive about my comment, because it wasn't directed at you, nor did I purposely direct it at any one person, as to not fully "judge" said person based on online comments alone.

Misogyny and sexism isn't about being offensive or hurt feelings, it's a lot more grandiose than that.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

For those arguing in favor of keeping the thread what's the reasoning?

it's a thread in which users are expressing women they find attractive from a physical vantage.

Is it the "physical" part of the equation the reason for debate? my thought on that is that it is completely natural for humans to be attacted to physique. No one in the thread is saying that skinny girls are more attractive than others, or that there are certain measurements that are attractive over another. in fact, it's a pretty cool mosaic of what CP'ers find appealing. Is there a lot of bikini shots, busts and backsides, sure, but if we are talking physical attraction, it is how straight males are somewhat programmed to gravitate to visually. By the same token, if (and when) the "hot guy" thread gets created, i'd imagine it would have several guys with focus on physiques that women find attractive, not just pictures of guys who have good personalities.

Now, the main rationale i do see in perhaps curbing the thread (though i didn't vote that way) is that if there are young folks on CP, and i expect that CP is a place open to all, then having images that are somewhat adult in nature may not be a good thing.

i don't know, i suppose i'm a bit out to lunch on the topic. today's pop culture disturbs me in how vulgar the main stream has really gotten. as an example.... i don't follow music videos at all now (being a 30+ year old) , however, have been forwarded 2 videos in the past 6 months of 1) Turn down for what and 2) anaconda by nikki minaj. Both left me feeling sick to the stomach that this is what our young boys and girls are watching. I then reflect it back to the pictures in the thread, and i just can't figure out what the line is between appreciating beauty versus utter vulgarity.

at the end of the day, i suppose it's a timeless question. i am disturbed at the vulgarity of pop culture today, just as much as my parents were disturbed by what i was exposed to as a kid, just as much as their parents were disturbed before them...

for the women on here, if there was a parallel "hot guy" thread, do you not feel it would also have a lot of guys showing off the stuff you find appealing? i don't think it would necessarily be of equal level of vulgarity, and if it isn't, is that more a function of the progress of the women's sexual evolution uptil now (ie. liberating women from this notion that they aren't to be as public as men in their enjoyment of such things) or that men aren't objectified as much as women today??

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

for the women on here, if there was a parallel "hot guy" thread, do you not feel it would also have a lot of guys showing off the stuff you find appealing? i don't think it would necessarily be of equal level of vulgarity, and if it isn't, is that more a function of the progress of the women's sexual evolution uptil now (ie. liberating women from this notion that they aren't to be as public as men in their enjoyment of such things) or that men aren't objectified as much as women today??

As has been said before, it's not the images, it's the running commentary. I'm quite capable of being as vulgar, if not more than my male friends and associates. However, I do that in the privacy of my own home and with the security of my friendships surrounding me. Not on a public forum for the consumption of others.

Why is it that you would rather women be as vulgar as men than have men be less vulgar? Maybe it's men that need to evolve into less vulgar beings so that women aren't grossed out and put off by their comments? What happened to polite society?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FireFly

As has been said before, it's not the images, it's the running commentary. I'm quite capable of being as vulgar, if not more than my male friends and associates. However, I do that in the privacy of my own home and with the security of my friendships surrounding me. Not on a public forum for the consumption of others.

Why is it that you would rather women be as vulgar as men than have men be less vulgar? Maybe it's men that need to evolve into less vulgar beings so that women aren't grossed out and put off by their comments? What happened to polite society?

Anonymity, is what happened.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Glass houses.

I…I don't even know how to respond to this. You think that anything I've said resembles you name calling people you have a disagreement with? That's a really immature response.

Honestly, if you think the objective or point was "don't be mean to girls" or being "offensive" is bad then you really weren't even investing in the point in the first place, nor showing any signs of even beginning to see the issue, so it's hard for me to address you with the same gravity you desire.

I don't know how you see it that way, that seems to be the point of this discussion. How to make things more inclusive and be less unintentionally offensive. You, on the other hand, seem to act like a martyr throughout this thread, fighting "the good fight", no matter what people actually are saying to you. You're mad at the way our society is constructed, not what individuals are doing or saying, so stop going after individual people. And, even if they say something you don't agree with or might be a little backward, do not talk to them like they are 5 years old because they just "don't get it". It's condescending and completely inaccurate. They get it, they just don't agree with you. Tough to handle, I know, but that's the way the world works.

If your point is that people can say something without meaning to be mean, well, I'm not sure quoting me helps you, because I fully meant to be mean (specifically to misogynists and sexists, to be fair). When someone says "Well I paid for that woman, so I have the right to judge her" or looks at a random picture of an Asian woman and says "Probably hard to hear anything over the sound of cash registers" then yeah, maybe they didn't "mean" to be cruel, but they're being a lot worse than cruel.

I don't think that justifies being insulting and condescending to the "others" that you think exist on this forum. If you want to change minds you'll never do it by being insulting, but rather appealing to their intellect, morals, and values. Whether you believe you're justified in using those words (you're not), it does nothing to help your cause and further entrenches both sides.

Are you one of those people? Someone who thinks he has a level of ownership over a woman? That she is a product which he buys and sells at his leisure? If not, then I'm not sure what you found offensive about my comment, because it wasn't directed at you, nor did I purposely direct it at any one person, as to not fully "judge" said person based on online comments alone.

Misogyny and sexism isn't about being offensive or hurt feelings, it's a lot more grandiose than that.

You assume way too much here. I'm upset because you used horrible words to describe men you disagree with, insofar as to make them seem incapable of having the basic intelligence to be more than a grunting caveman. That, right there, is sexist because you are judging these men to be incapable of understanding or learning and are reducing them to a purely physical being with no brain. You also assume that anyone that is offended by those words is also "one of those". If you can't see the problem with that then YOU'RE missing the point now. It's sexism bordering on misandry.

[nfotiu]

It seems without the commentary, there is even less point of that thread. It just becomes a collection of pictures already available on the internet without any value add from the community. I don't really know what kind of tasteful, insightful commentary you can really expect to go along with hyper sexed up half naked pictures.

All in all, it just seems that the value that thread adds is so little. If definitely doesn't promote inclusiveness, probably cheapens the site a tiny bit and its existence seems to promote a little of the "I'd destroy that", etc type comments that bleed into other parts of the forum.

[MarchHare]

It's funny* how close this thread has come to scoring a full card on internet sexism bingo.

Spoiler!

*Not really

[maverickstruth]

Been thinking about this since I last posted, a lot.

In my previous post, I had said that it really was the comments that got to me. But as I think more about it (and as I did, I actually went and looked at the YLYL thread again), I realized that's not true.

Because even if it's just pictures, it's still objectification. And at the core, that bothers me.

Even as I think about some of the arguments used in support of the thread, such as "what's wrong with appreciating the female form?" or "at least then it's restricted to one place, not all over the forum."

Those statements, in and of themselves, are extremely objectifying. To appreciate the form, the body ... that's not appreciating the person / woman. That's objectifying her, as an object to be appreciated. Restricting it to one place? Really? That suggests that objectifying women is okay - and you're just being polite by keeping it localized to that one thread.

Now, some will say (and have said), "well, the girls have had a thread of hot guys, you know!" or "well, why don't you just have a hot guys thread, then?"

That doesn't solve the issue of objectification. It expands it. I also looked at the 'hot guys draft' thread. It bothered me, too.

Finally, a few people have made the comment "If you want to look at hot women, you can do so lots of other places on the web. Why do you have to be able to do it here?" I agree with the sentiment, but would go further. In my opinion, when you start posting pictures of hot guys/gals here, you are no longer just passively objectifying them - you are actively propagating the notion that objectifying them is okay. You are going out of your way to collect and share images, with no context or purpose other than to share a 'hot body'. That, by definition, is objectification. And I don't see why CP as a community has to be a place where objectification of men or women is promoted.

I realize I'm probably in the minority, even of the other gals here. But the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. So, there you have it :-)

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by FireFly

As has been said before, it's not the images, it's the running commentary. I'm quite capable of being as vulgar, if not more than my male friends and associates. However, I do that in the privacy of my own home and with the security of my friendships surrounding me. Not on a public forum for the consumption of others.

Why is it that you would rather women be as vulgar as men than have men be less vulgar? Maybe it's men that need to evolve into less vulgar beings so that women aren't grossed out and put off by their comments? What happened to polite society?

sorry, i didn't say, or at least didn't intend to mean that "would rather women be as vulgar as men" or vice versa.

what i was trying to suggest is that if there were a hot guy thread, there would be pictures and comments on physique in there also. How explicit those images may differ, but i didn't suggest that women posting should be more/less vulgar. My comment regarding the "sexual evolution" was that the level of vulgarity that is expressed today is likely higher than it was even just a generation ago (without expressing any opinion on the trend itself).

I haven't followed this thread, so thought the issue was with the pics, not the comments.

i do agree on your point of being a "polite society" and we all have our "vulgarities" that we typically only express in private settings amongst close relations. This being a public forum, does come with the inherent rule that one can state their opinion as long as that opinion doesn't outright offend another user. So if there are people offended then it should definitely be considered for removal.

Without needing to cite actual examples, what kind of comments are the ones that folks are taking issue with in this thread? is it comments on physical attributes or are there perverse/sexual natured comments there?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Without needing to cite actual examples, what kind of comments are the ones that folks are taking issue with in this thread? is it comments on physical attributes or are there perverse/sexual natured comments there?

One of the female posters (sorry, I can't remember who) took issue with comments of the type "7/10, would not bang". Her point was that she was looking at a photo of what she thought was a very beautiful woman, but some guy was saying she was only a 7, so what does that make her, a 3?

Another example given was a CP member who posted photos of his own wife and was then criticized for "bringing down the standards of the thread".

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

One of the female posters (sorry, I can't remember who) took issue with comments of the type "7/10, would not bang". Her point was that she was looking at a photo of what she thought was a very beautiful woman, but some guy was saying she was only a 7, so what does that make her, a 3?

Another example given was a CP member who posted photos of his own wife and was then criticized for "bringing down the standards of the thread".

thanks.

my take on the thread, again, is a mosaic of what CP posters find attractive. The fact that someone posted a picture of someone there is a testament that there exists at least one that finds beauty in that picture, and like anything, opinions differ.

i do, however, understand how it could upset/offend other posters on the forum. I suppose the fact that there are clear objections to the thread, posters that have been offended by it, it should be removed, regardless of the poll.

yes, this is a public forum, but our right to post something really does end where what we are posting is offending even one other poster.