Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

A lot of our success as a province is due to the entrepreneurial spirit of the many people who were willing to take risks. I firmly believe that a vote for the NDP will dampen that spirit.

Yet the last ANDP government increased the types of businesses that existed in the province, diversifying the economy. They were feeding directly into that risk taking and it was the UCP that shut the door on it.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

A lot of our success as a province is due to the entrepreneurial spirit of the many people who were willing to take risks. I firmly believe that a vote for the NDP will dampen that spirit.

Sorry, no. A lot of our success as a province is due to the black gold buried within our borders. Our entrepreneurial spirit is nothing compared to some places and not that much different from most other parts of Canada.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

If we go back to the NDP, I predict a number of things will happen:

1. Corporate and personal taxes will increase

2. The number of people working for the government will increase

3. Government handouts will be the norm.

4. Our provincial debt will balloon, hopefully not as bad as Ray managed to do in Ontario

5. Our provincial government will be too cozy with the Federal Government, and refrain for standing up for our rights as a province.

6. Foreign investment will continue to lag

7. Our P & NG reserves and production will drop, and the price of gas at the pump will increase dramatically

8. Our hunters will have fewer guns, but the crooks will still be well armed

9. Our province and the residents will be worse off five years from now

1)fine, they are too low to sustain our province when resource revenue dips, smart economists have been saying we need to fix this since, well ,forever basically.

2)sounds like we have a shortage in the courts, hospitals, senior care, education, so, uh...good? Good.

3)Like the ones the UCP started, and Danny bucks for votes?

4)Yes, unlike how the brilliant fiscal pro's the Conservatives have managed over the past 40 years. Oh, wait, they suck at it too.

5)Cozy, or cooperative? You know what gets more done? Cooperation. It's a good thing, despite what our clown in chief seems to think.

6)Like chasing away film studios with anti-science rhetoric? Government red tape telling private business how to run? Sounds bad.

7)No evidence that would happen, now you are really grasping at paper straws
8)That's a Federal issue. Say it with me. Federal. No amount of unconstitutional Bill 1's will change that. Stop buying into her bull####, you are being played.

9)And a partridge in a pear treee!

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The difference between Alberta and any other province in Canada is that millions of years ago a bunch of stuff died and decomposed in the ground and created fossil fuels. You are no more gung ho in Alberta than the guy in Manitoba, Ontario or PEI.

No, I disagree with this. There is a noticeable pro-business and entrepreneurial culture in Alberta that doesn't exist to the same degree as BC.

I wish some of the older generation of Albertans weren't so concerned with tying that spirit to oil and gas, exclusively.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

If we go back to the NDP, I predict a number of things will happen:


2. The number of people working for the government will increase

This is from an article in 2019, right after the Alberta NDP left power.

Perhaps contrary to what is commonly thought, there has been practically no relative growth in the public sector as a percentage of the total population since the mid-1970s. From 1976 to 2018, the national figure increased from 9.84 percent to 10.23 percent, while the comparable figures for Alberta are 10.29 and 10.23 percent, respectively. Thus, public sector employment in both Canada and Alberta is about the same proportion of population as it was back in the mid-1970s, and as of 2018, the Alberta figure was identical to the national average. Quebec is the only province that has increased the relative size of its public sector, whereas it has fallen in Ontario and BC.

Another way of measuring the size of public sector is as a percentage of total employment. By this measure, public sector employment has been falling, not only in Alberta, but generally throughout the country. Overall, the size of the public sector in Alberta is still at or below the national average, even over the past four to five years, when the size of the public sector in Alberta grew and private sector employment declined.

https://www.parklandinstitute.ca/scr..._public_sector

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The difference between Alberta and any other province in Canada is that millions of years ago a bunch of stuff died and decomposed in the ground and created fossil fuels. You are no more gung ho in Alberta than the guy in Manitoba, Ontario or PEI.

Quebec and the maritimes could produce lots of fracked gas...if they had the Alberta spirit. But they don’t, they lazily handwave about enviro concerns and let it sit there while importing gas from the states instead. Our oil and gas isn’t like the Middle East there was a lot of innovation and investment into making it work at scale, nowhere else in the world can produce oil like we do. Good thing the oil sands weren’t out east or they’d be sitting there uselessly deriving zero value and we’d all be much poorer.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The difference between Alberta and any other province in Canada is that millions of years ago a bunch of stuff died and decomposed in the ground and created fossil fuels. You are no more gung ho in Alberta than the guy in Manitoba, Ontario or PEI.

I’d disagree with this. The results of the fossils fuels being buried here along with a lack of population and a lack of government resources created a culture which led to the “gung ho” spirit.

The government is a reflection of the current culture rather than a cause of future culture. The NDP being competitive is a result of the independent self sufficient myth failing more and more people. It is a symptom not a cause.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Quebec and the maritimes could produce lots of fracked gas...if they had the Alberta spirit. But they don’t, they lazily handwave about enviro concerns and let it sit there while importing gas from the states instead. Our oil and gas isn’t like the Middle East there was a lot of innovation and investment into making it work at scale, nowhere else in the world can produce oil like we do. Good thing the oil sands weren’t out east or they’d be sitting there uselessly deriving zero value and we’d all be much poorer.

you don't think fracking is an environmental problem?

[btimbit]

lol, I like how more public sector jobs is a bad thing to some people.

Personally, I'd love to see things like healthcare, public safety and education expanded. How is this some spooky left wing boogeyman

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

This is from an article in 2019, right after the Alberta NDP left power.



https://www.parklandinstitute.ca/scr..._public_sector

It might be more useful to post or look at the actual profile of employees per capita because just looking at the values 10.29% and 10.23% forty years apart leaves out a lot of details. It looks like the number when the NDP gained power was around 9% and increased to 10 3% over a couple of years.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

you don't think fracking is an environmental problem?

No not in the least.

Also I like being warm in the winter and I’m assuming you do as well.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Quebec and the maritimes could produce lots of fracked gas...if they had the Alberta spirit. But they don’t, they lazily handwave about enviro concerns and let it sit there while importing gas from the states instead. Our oil and gas isn’t like the Middle East there was a lot of innovation and investment into making it work at scale, nowhere else in the world can produce oil like we do. Good thing the oil sands weren’t out east or they’d be sitting there uselessly deriving zero value and we’d all be much poorer.

This is such a lazy history of the oil sands. People from "out east" did extensive geological surveys of the North West Territories ( Alberta before 1905) in the 19th Century. It was always the plan exploit those mineral resources. The only thing stopping immediate development was the need for technology. If the Oil sands were "outeast" Alberta would have the same population of Saskatchewan, which it did before 1950. The true Alberta spirit comes from those who survived the great depression, and knew that strong social services were important.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

This is such a lazy history of the oil sands. People from "out east" did extensive geological surveys of the North West Territories ( Alberta before 1905) in the 19th Century. It was always the plan exploit those mineral resources. The only thing stopping immediate development was the need for technology. If the Oil sands were "outeast" Alberta would have the same population of Saskatchewan, which it did before 1950. The true Alberta spirit comes from those who survived the great depression, and knew that strong social services were important.

Nah they knew that production of goods the world needs is more important.

I just gave you a specific example of easterners not exploiting their resources so yeah, if the oil sands were in Quebec or Ontario it would just be sitting there. The counterpoint to that isn’t Peter Pond being an easterner.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

It might be more useful to post or look at the actual profile of employees per capita because just looking at the values 10.29% and 10.23% forty years apart leaves out a lot of details. It looks like the number when the NDP gained power was around 9% and increased to 10 3% over a couple of years.

from the same article

It is widely known that nominal weekly earnings in Alberta are the highest in the country, and since at least 2001, the consumer price index (CPI) has also advanced more in Alberta than in any of its comparator jurisdictions. As such, it is important that any earnings comparisons between Alberta and other jurisdictions consider these different inflation rates.

Since 2001, average overall earnings for all workers in Alberta have exceeded those in each of the comparator jurisdictions except Ontario, where Alberta earnings surpassed those in that province in 2008. In 2014, average earnings in Alberta were some 15 percent higher than the national and Ontario average, and 25 percent higher than in Quebec. The downturn in the provincial economy has meant that the Alberta wage advantage has declined to 8 percent compared to the national average, but in 2018 relative real earnings were still higher than in all other jurisdictions.

Disaggregating the three industries largely (or exclusively in the case of public administration) populated by public employees—educational services, health care and social assistance, and public administration, which collectively employ 85.5 percent of all public employees in Canada and 87.1 percent in Alberta—allows a comparison of public sector wage levels to all Alberta workers. The data show that while overall real weekly earnings in Alberta are above those in Canada and its three largest provinces, real weekly earnings in Alberta for each of the three public sector industries under consideration are often at or below those of other jurisdictions.

It’s possible to get a better understanding of relative earnings levels by using a difference-in-difference methodology, which compares the relative earnings differences in each of the three main public sector industries with the overall earnings differential. Using this measure, we find that relative to overall wages, Alberta employees in these industries tend to suffer a wage penalty, although this penalty has diminished since the mid-2010s, coinciding with the recent downturn in the Alberta economy and the commensurate decline in overall real weekly earnings. Employees in these three industries in Alberta do have earnings that tend to be higher than in other sectors, but earnings in Alberta in these other sectors tend to be proportionately higher than in the other provinces, putting Albertans in these public sector jobs at a relative earnings disadvantage (the exception is local government administration employees).

A final way to look at public sector compensation levels is to compare real hourly wage levels using the nominal LFS wage data adjusted for differences in the rate of inflation by jurisdiction. The data show that overall real wages in Alberta are higher than the Canadian average (and higher than in any of the provinces), and this overall wage advantage is largely due to higher private sector wages, where the Alberta advantage is 17–18 percent for private sector employees in Alberta relative to the national average, compared to the public sector wage advantage of 9–10 percent.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Quebec and the maritimes could produce lots of fracked gas...if they had the Alberta spirit. But they don’t, they lazily handwave about enviro concerns and let it sit there while importing gas from the states instead. Our oil and gas isn’t like the Middle East there was a lot of innovation and investment into making it work at scale, nowhere else in the world can produce oil like we do. Good thing the oil sands weren’t out east or they’d be sitting there uselessly deriving zero value and we’d all be much poorer.

Such nonsense. Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland mine minerals at a giant proportion compared to Alberta. There is just different junk in the ground in those places. If 50 years down the road uranium or lithium becomes the hot commodity for energy - will Saskatchewan or Quebec suddenly become entrepreneur provinces?

Just believing your own myths.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Such nonsense. Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland mine minerals at a giant proportion compared to Alberta. There is just different junk in the ground in those places. If 50 years down the road uranium or lithium becomes the hot commodity for energy - will Saskatchewan or Quebec suddenly become entrepreneur provinces?

Just believing your own myths.

Will they? I don’t know it’s up to them, depends on how Albertan they decide to be. Ontario and Quebec’s mining industry is legacy junk, new projects get cancelled there all the time. And they have full market access for anything they want, unlike us. And again, they refuse to get their own gas, I guess paying through their nose from the states is better, somehow.

Why’s it so hard for you to admit that Alberta is the best and pays for everything around here? I’ve been telling you this for years

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Nah they knew that production of goods the world needs is more important.

I just gave you a specific example of easterners not exploiting their resources so yeah, if the oil sands were in Quebec or Ontario it would just be sitting there. The counterpoint to that isn’t Peter Pond being an easterner.

I was talking about later examples.

The earliest recognition of oil sands was in 1719 in the york factory journal whena Cree brought a sample to Henry Kelsey. Peter Pond remarked the oil sands in 1778, Alexander mackenzie the same about a decade after. But I was not talking about these early reports.

What is more interesting with respect to this discussion is the John Macoun's 1875 reconnaissance sponsored by the geological survey of Canada. Who were paid for by the folks in the Martimes Quebec and Ontario. These were follow by reports by Robert Bell and R.G McConnell. Again, all paid for by Canadian Tax payers 30 years before Alberta was a province.

There are many other examples of "out east" interest in the development of O & G in Alberta. Perhaps the most interesting is the 1975 the federal government and Ontario government investment in the Syncrude plant (15% and 5% interest respectively). The Syncrude plant of course being one of the crown jewls of the oil sands.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Will they? I don’t know it’s up to them, depends on how Albertan they decide to be. Ontario and Quebec’s mining industry is legacy junk, new projects get cancelled there all the time. And they have full market access for anything they want, unlike us. And again, they refuse to get their own gas, I guess paying through their nose from the states is better, somehow.

Why’s it so hard for you to admit that Alberta is the best and pays for everything around here? I’ve been telling you this for years

well.. because its nonsense that makes you feel better about yourself. Most of us grow past needing to believe in the tooth fairy as we grow older though.

Alberta is great. O&G as an industry is good for Canada. But it's just not as all encompassing to our economy as you've been led to believe.

[flamesfever]

To be fair, Ontario has done a fairly good job of developing their oil and gas potential. However, it is miniscule compared to the WCSB.

As for developing the Oil Sands, Canadians will probably never appreciate how much technical excellence, planning, for sight and financial give and take between government and industry to make it happen.

[blender]

Originally Posted by btimbit

lol, I like how more public sector jobs is a bad thing to some people.

Personally, I'd love to see things like healthcare, public safety and education expanded. How is this some spooky left wing boogeyman

Because those things aren't private enterprise and the corporations can't get their greedy paws in them. So the plan is to destroy them and then rebuild them privately so corporations can find new revenue streams.