Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[home_sweet_dome]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I doubt the Flames move but ownership might try and sell.

That would be the dream as then perhaps we'll get competent owners that don't hire and keep absolute incompetent fools like Ken King around and perhaps then we can get a team that gets out of the 1st round more than 2 times in 28 years

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Fire

Why would they hide it? Who cares if the Flames owners donated to Bill Smith. They are free to donate to whichever candidates they want.

Because it wouldn't look good if Smith won and gave the owners exactly what they want. His political career would be over.

You think it makes no difference that If the owners funded his campaign and then he cheated tax payers by giving the owners what they want? He'd be going against the interests of Calgarians.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

That’s plausible. It seems unlikely to me that sports franchise owners would play hardball with their customer base like that though. At the end of the day it’s a business, while nfl teams could probably get away with it due to the economics of that league, I don’t believe the nhl is in the same boat. Hockey is still very much a fringe sport in most of the US and can’t risk alienating their fan base like that. While emotional attachment to teams will maintain support, every fan has their limit to how much crap they’ll put up with from their team.

Nothing the team has done to this point in the negotiation process has been shocking to me. Remember when the oilers were moving to Seattle if they didn’t get a new building? Or the Pens to Hamilton? The best way for a franchise to get the best deal possible on a building is to scare their fan base into believing without public funding for a new arena the team will leave. When you think about it, what else could a group of billionaires possibly use as leverage to convince people to pay for something they could easily afford to pay for themselves?

Why is the viability of a prospective move to the States even relevant though? You look at the costs of expansion, you look at the amount of money being spent on opening the door for Seattle and Houston to potentially get teams one way or another, why would the Flames say no to that kind of money changing hands if they don't get what they want? The team could bomb from day one after that point for all they care, it's no longer their problem. If anything they might very well welcome having one less thing tying their money down in Canada and follow Edwards' lead.

The irony of even QC being used as a relocation threat is that Calgary could very well decide to do a QC type of move - hold pat until the moment the finances tip over into the red and pull the rug out. What the attendance numbers were like for other teams was as relevant to Quebec's departure as Calgary's might end up being.

[theTrumanShow]

FIRE KEN KING! Poof. You have an arena. The Flames will never leave. They will make a tonne of cash on the next expansion team, why would they sell. Glad we have a mayor fighting to keep money in the pockets of the constituents and not billionaires like Edwards. Smith would have thrown tax payers under the bus.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by home_sweet_dome

That would be the dream as then perhaps we'll get competent owners that don't hire and keep absolute incompetent fools like Ken King around and perhaps then we can get a team that gets out of the 1st round more than 2 times in 28 years

Oh geeze, regardless of how you feel about the arena situation or KK, be careful what you wish for. Not saying they are perfect, but do we really want to complain about an ownership group that basically allows us to spend to the cap each year? Things could be a lot worse, and I'd be much more worried about what new owners could mean than optimistic about how much better they could make it.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Neither side really has much leverage now.

the Flames said they're done talking about a new arena, the mayor that they can't feel that they can deal with is back for another four years. They won't go crawling back to him. they'll do what they stated, they'll play in the dome until its far beyond obsolete.

Nenshi can't go back to the Flames and give them anything to come back to the table, he pretty much put a hard stamp on that during his campaign

In order to start a negotiation you have to have a common interest that brings both sides to the table. There isn't a common interest.

I would expect that in the next couple of weeks the Flames will re-iterate that they're not talking about a new building anymore.

Money. That is the common interest.

Both sides realistically understand that they will both be paying to build the new arena. I think everyone can agree on that.

Right now the costs associated with construction and any land that may need to be purchased in order to build the arena are likely at the lowest they will ever be. The longer both sides wait, the wider the gap between the two parties becomes as construction costs go up. It doesn’t matter who’s current plan you look at, if construction costs increase by as little as 5% that’s a massive increase to the overall project, and everyone has to pay for it. The city and the team both know this too.

The flames went all in trying to get a sweetheart deal, and though I don’t agree with their approach, I understand why they did it and I don’t blame them for it. But now that they know their best case scenario is no longer a possibility, I’m sure they will get back to work trying to negotiate a fair deal, they don’t have many other options. The league wants expansion in the west to even out the conferences and teams like Carolina and Phoenix will be moved long before the flames, the owners aren’t going to wait 10-15 years to move when they can make more money here long term by investing a little more on their end for an arena.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Because it wouldn't look good if Smith won and gave the owners exactly what they want. His political career would be over.

You think it makes no difference that If the owners funded his campaign and then he cheated tax payers by giving the owners what they want? He'd be going against the interests of Calgarians.

You make no sense. If Smith won then people would have knowingly voted for someone that was more willing to make a deal with the Flames. Therefore he wouldn't have gone against the interests of Calgarians. Bill Smith being the Flames favourite candidate wasn't exactly top secret.

[stone hands]

Just because a lot of people think something is a good idea, doesn't make it one

[Fire]

Originally Posted by theTrumanShow

FIRE KEN KING! Poof. You have an arena. The Flames will never leave. They will make a tonne of cash on the next expansion team, why would they sell. Glad we have a mayor fighting to keep money in the pockets of the constituents and not billionaires like Edwards. Smith would have thrown tax payers under the bus.

Funny that people still think Ken King is the problem. If King left the Flames owners would just hire someone else that would follow their instructions.

[Robbob]

New owners aren't always the answer. Ask Buffalo how that is going.

I am glad the election is over, hopefully it will tone down some of the ridiculous comments on both sides. I hate that the arena business or process keeps creeping into everything. Hopefully hockey can come back to the forefront.

[fotiou22]

Somebody asked elsewhere, how many NHL teams can Seattle actually support?

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Fire

You make no sense. If Smith won then people would have knowingly voted for someone that was more willing to make a deal with the Flames. Therefore he wouldn't have gone against the interests of Calgarians. Bill Smith being the Flames favourite candidate wasn't exactly top secret.

It's because you don't understand which why I make no sense.

Why do you think Smith wouldn't release his donor list before the election? Being someones favorite and then getting bought are two different things.

And you really think the mayor race was all about the arena? Coudlnt have been about the LRT green line or business taxes....nope all about the precious Flames.

[You Need a Thneed]

Let me summarize this again.

There are two viewpoints being presented here. The Flames portray that the arena is a community gathering place, and that the Flames are being so generous by even putting in a little bit of the own money - since the building is going to be owned by the city. The City portrays that no matter who “owns” the building, the Flames recieve all of the benefits of an owner, and in that case, The city owning the building is actually a subsidy to the Flames, because they don’t have to pay property tax.

In short, there is a fundamental difference in that each side is portraying that they are “giving” money to the other side, for their project.

The fact is that the city is correct. A building to has all revenues going to a private entity is a building that “belongs” to that private entity. The city ownership of the building is, in fact, a subsidy to that private entity.

Now, there is one question that remains, do the Flames actually believe what they are portraying, or did they just present it that way to try and influence the election/public? Because if they actually do believe what they are portraying, there will never be a deal with the city - at least until they come to their senses. If they were just trying to fool people, they aren’t actually that far apart, and a deal should be able to be made surly quickly.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by Fire

Funny that people still think Ken King is the problem. If King left the Flames owners would just hire someone else that would follow their instructions.

They can hire me.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Fire

Funny that people still think Ken King is the problem. If King left the Flames owners would just hire someone else that would follow their instructions.

Yes, but perhaps they can hire someone who can articulate (and negotiate) their viewpoint in a more productive fashion. For someone who is supposed to be a salesman for the team, Ken King does a horrible job of getting an idea across.

[Muta]

My opinion is that in order to move the process forward, the City and the Flames should advance a conceptual design for the recommended area, and put it forth publicly.

They don't necessarily have to agree on the funding of the facility yet (which is the current sticky point), but what this would do is put forth a visual indicator of partnership, trust and progress between the two parties. I also believe the city should pay for this preliminary work in order to show a sign of goodwill towards the process and an interest in working with all stakeholders. Conceptual work, in the large picture, is not expensive to undertake and can effectively establish that vision that people need to see.

With an updated and tangible arena concept in hand, the City and Flames can work towards a common goal as a team and provide more of a path that all parties (including citizens) can identify with.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Money. That is the common interest.

Both sides realistically understand that they will both be paying to build the new arena. I think everyone can agree on that.

Right now the costs associated with construction and any land that may need to be purchased in order to build the arena are likely at the lowest they will ever be. The longer both sides wait, the wider the gap between the two parties becomes as construction costs go up. It doesn’t matter who’s current plan you look at, if construction costs increase by as little as 5% that’s a massive increase to the overall project, and everyone has to pay for it. The city and the team both know this too.

The flames went all in trying to get a sweetheart deal, and though I don’t agree with their approach, I understand why they did it and I don’t blame them for it. But now that they know their best case scenario is no longer a possibility, I’m sure they will get back to work trying to negotiate a fair deal, they don’t have many other options. The league wants expansion in the west to even out the conferences and teams like Carolina and Phoenix will be moved long before the flames, the owners aren’t going to wait 10-15 years to move when they can make more money here long term by investing a little more on their end for an arena.

This is very true and accurate. Both sides want / need this project. The Flames need a new arena to run their business out of. While I'm not concerned that this will occur, eventually the Flames will find somewhere new to play, whether that be here or elsewhere.

The city would also spend money and build a new arena at some point, even if the Flames didn't exist. It's a facility they feel the want / need to have to continue to grow this city's economy and maintain quality of life for Calgarians. If the Flames left, the city would eventually build a new rink to attract events and would be working on a permanent tenant (likely NHL) ala Quebec City.

So what does this mean? Means we do have common ground and a common interest and need. Both sides want this. Right now both sides are trying to make the other side pay for as much of it as possible. They seem to have reached an impasse.

I don't know what the right split is or deal, and I'm not optimistic that these particular two sides can actual find the right spot, but I firmly believe one does exist.

[fotiou22]

Ken King's going to be the scapegoat for this. In that sense he's done his job perfectly. But geez, you have to wonder how he can look himself in the mirror after all this. Or even make eye contact with all of us in this city he's tried to screw over.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Let me summarize this again.

There are two viewpoints being presented here. The Flames portray that the arena is a community gathering place, and that the Flames are being so generous by even putting in a little bit of the own money - since the building is going to be owned by the city. The City portrays that no matter who “owns” the building, the Flames recieve all of the benefits of an owner, and in that case, The city owning the building is actually a subsidy to the Flames, because they don’t have to pay property tax.

In short, there is a fundamental difference in that each side is portraying that they are “giving” money to the other side, for their project.

The fact is that the city is correct. A building to has all revenues going to a private entity is a building that “belongs” to that private entity. The city ownership of the building is, in fact, a subsidy to that private entity.

Now, there is one question that remains, do the Flames actually believe what they are portraying, or did they just present it that way to try and influence the election/public? Because if they actually do believe what they are portraying, there will never be a deal with the city - at least until they come to their senses. If they were just trying to fool people, they aren’t actually that far apart, and a deal should be able to be made surly quickly.

It is not that simple. Does CSEC benefit from the Stampede using the facility? There is a little more nuance to that point than your opinion would suggest.

There is also another fundamental issue at play here that doesn't get as much discussion as it warrants, IMO. And that is the location.

Arenas, in cities this size, are not good investments, which is why funding is such a major issue and source of contention. But an extension of that is that an arena does attract a large amount of development around it. CSEC (or the owners) wants to develop other projects around the arena, in order to leverage their investment.

The city wants the arena to be part of their development plan. They have their own plans for the area surrounding the Victoria Park location (thus the city also sees benefit in the project). And further to this, the Stampede Board wants that location, and wants to benefit from the arena as well.

There is no right or wrong here, simply two very different agendas. And IMO, this is the real source of the cavernous distance between the two sides.

[home_sweet_dome]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Oh geeze, regardless of how you feel about the arena situation or KK, be careful what you wish for. Not saying they are perfect, but do we really want to complain about an ownership group that basically allows us to spend to the cap each year? Things could be a lot worse, and I'd be much more worried about what new owners could mean than optimistic about how much better they could make it.

For the last 21 years, this ownership group has employed either Ron Bremner or Ken King as the President of the Flames/CSEC. These are 2 guys that have proven to be absolute disasters in that role with numerous poor hires made below them for both on and off ice roles. There is no sign that King is about to be turfed anytime soon either.

In that 21 years the Flames have gotten out of the 1st round twice, the magical and improbable run in 2004 and beating the Nucks in 2015 only to get crushed in the 2nd round by a much superior Ducks team.

Yes the Flames owners spend to the cap in recent years but as proven last night, all the money in the world doesn't buy success if you don't have competent people in the right positions of the organization, especially at the top.

There are also the various reports of meddling by ownership and whether true or not, the results of the Flames with this ownership group, especially after the passing of Hotchkiss, speak for themselves.

So to summarize, ya i'd definitely take my chances with a different ownership group.