Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Fire]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I’d argue that the city’s offer on the table is somewhat better for the Flames than the deal the Flames currently have. Instead of getting an annual subsidy - in the form of not paying any property tax, they are getting roughly the same amount of money subsidized to them up front.

lol, besides the fact the Flames didn't have to pay for the Saddledome?

[jschick88]

Lucas Meyer‏ @meyer_lucas
Update from #Flames on comm. official saying #Nenshi as mayor is worse than Trump as president: doesn’t rep company #yyc #yycvote

[Benched]

lost in all this is the Stampeders.

If the Flames move to Seattle, do they sell their rights to the CFL team? Or keep them?


If they kept the team I would assume that having moved a beloved franchise out of town, their other team/products would suffer a consumer backlash. Not really fair to the Stamps, but I could see it happening.

Wonder if any of that self interest is weighing on their minds?


Overall I see them waiting for the Olympic bid (if one is forthcoming) as their next/last best shot. From there they will either A) come back to the table B) move the team C) wait for the next election/economic upswing to try again

[Fire]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I'm not an expert on these discussions but wouldn't it be easy for the Flames to use a third party for their donations? So nobody knows it was them?

Why would they hide it? Who cares if the Flames owners donated to Bill Smith. They are free to donate to whichever candidates they want.

[CliffFletcher]

The Hurricanes are playing to 8,000 fans. When you watch the highlights from Raleigh there are entire rows empty behind the benches. And the league is still hesitant to move them.

That's how much the board of governors hates relocation.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I'm not an expert on these discussions but wouldn't it be easy for the Flames to use a third party for their donations? So nobody knows it was them?

Why would they do that? You mean that they're worried people are going to think that they're donating to a candidate that supports their interests! The horror.

[Backlunds_socks]

Lets see:

Last expansion team Las Vegas

Last team moved to Winnipeg

There aren't exactly grade A NHL locations.

[Fuzz]

Unless the Flames stop filling the Dome, they aren't going anywhere.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Benched

lost in all this is the Stampeders.

If the Flames move to Seattle, do they sell their rights to the CFL team? Or keep them?


If they kept the team I would assume that having moved a beloved franchise out of town, their other team/products would suffer a consumer backlash. Not really fair to the Stamps, but I could see it happening.

Wonder if any of that self interest is weighing on their minds?


Overall I see them waiting for the Olympic bid (if one is forthcoming) as their next/last best shot. From there they will either A) come back to the table B) move the team C) wait for the next election/economic upswing to try again

I doubt the owners would only sell the Flames, they would want to sell the Stampeders, Roughnecks and Hitmen as well. All teams have arena/stadium issues and financially it doesn't make sense without the Flames. They would try to sell to local ownership, maybe it ends up being a group of 20 or 30 people willing to pool their money, like what happened in Edmonton.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The city has more leverage than the flames IMO. The league is unlikely to approve a move unless they can expect to generate more revenue in another market. At this point the longer the flames wait to go back to the table, the longer they wait to enjoy the benefits of their new arena. City loses nothing by waiting them out.

Neither side really has much leverage now.

the Flames said they're done talking about a new arena, the mayor that they can't feel that they can deal with is back for another four years. They won't go crawling back to him. they'll do what they stated, they'll play in the dome until its far beyond obsolete.

Nenshi can't go back to the Flames and give them anything to come back to the table, he pretty much put a hard stamp on that during his campaign

In order to start a negotiation you have to have a common interest that brings both sides to the table. There isn't a common interest.

I would expect that in the next couple of weeks the Flames will re-iterate that they're not talking about a new building anymore.

[Table 5]

At least from a face-saving perspective, I think both parties would help move things along if there were some new faces on each side.

The Flames need to replace King with someone competent, as his bumbling of everything has been a huge part of the problem from the start. While just a representative for ownership, he's the face of all that's wrong with the project. Time to reset.

An owner (who probably isn't Edwards) may also want to step up to the mic, instead of hiding in the shadows, or getting Brett Wilson to do the talking for them. Start conversing with the citizens you want money from, instead of just threatening them.

The City in many ways is in a position to stay as-is, but they may want to consider having another individual lead the way in negotiations, even if just publicly. Even though I doubt it was Nenshi doing all the negotiating, having another face be the spokesperson may allow the Flames to save face a bit.

I do think the smoothest way to a new arena now is through the Olympics. Although I'm not sure the Flames will get as much control of that process and final result as they would if negotiated the arena on their own. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, because I don't really want the Flames to be the leaders in any sort of development.

[Toonage]

A go between will help them reach the middle ground. That's usually the case in these sorts of stalemates. Calgary will have its inverted bowl.

[nfotiu]

Calgary getting the Olympics and building an arena the Flames refuse to play in would be a fitting end to all this.

[home_sweet_dome]

I take it that means Sean Kelso ain't getting fired, no real surprise there even though he is a tool and needs to be gone.

The much bigger issue is Ken King. At what point will this utterly incompetent, slimy, arrogant, pompous meathead finally get turfed? IMO the arena deal has a much better chance of getting done with one of Nenshi or King removed from the negotiations. As it's clearly not gonna be Nenshi anytime soon (thankfully), the Flames ownership would be wise to finally punt King before coming crawling back to the table.

But wise and Flames ownership don't exactly go together.

[northcrunk]

I doubt the Flames move but ownership might try and sell.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I doubt the Flames move but ownership might try and sell.

Owner ship will probably sell and they won't put conditions on local ownership or the right of the new owners to move the team.

they'll just sell the properties, take their cash and won't care.

This might come to the point of it not being worth the head ache or assaults on their reputations for the current owners.

[tkflames]

I think that the only way negotiations restart is if you ready the table. As mentioned previously, each side's position is too public at the moment and they are too far apart. To reset the table you need to change the equation with either:

A) How do you increase public benefit to allow the city to raise more money (public ice surface, partially open concession area etc. Does an Olympic bid introduce a third party investor (provincial/federal government? Can this justify additional investment from the city?

B) How do you help the flames make more money out of this investment? E.g. government incentives for stampede way development to the Flames

I think only by shifting the equation for both sides that they can sell to their respective stakeholders to offer more...will be interesting to see if it actually happens.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Counterpoint - The NHL's ownership group is made up of super-rich, mostly conservative men. The Flames' owners essentially threatened to move the team unless the city voted for the political candidate they backed. If the Flames' owners were allowed to follow through on that threat, then other pro sports owners could pull the same stunt with their own franchises in order to get their own guys into the levels of government that affect them, and point to Calgary as an example of what might happen if the city's voters don't do as they're told. That might be worth the revenue decrease to them.

That’s plausible. It seems unlikely to me that sports franchise owners would play hardball with their customer base like that though. At the end of the day it’s a business, while nfl teams could probably get away with it due to the economics of that league, I don’t believe the nhl is in the same boat. Hockey is still very much a fringe sport in most of the US and can’t risk alienating their fan base like that. While emotional attachment to teams will maintain support, every fan has their limit to how much crap they’ll put up with from their team.

Nothing the team has done to this point in the negotiation process has been shocking to me. Remember when the oilers were moving to Seattle if they didn’t get a new building? Or the Pens to Hamilton? The best way for a franchise to get the best deal possible on a building is to scare their fan base into believing without public funding for a new arena the team will leave. When you think about it, what else could a group of billionaires possibly use as leverage to convince people to pay for something they could easily afford to pay for themselves?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Hurricanes are playing to 8,000 fans. When you watch the highlights from Raleigh there are entire rows empty behind the benches. And the league is still hesitant to move them.

That's how much the board of governors hates relocation.

Yep. You've also got a team that may be playing without a building (Islanders), a mess in Phoenix and a team like Florida with major issues. You've also got swaths of empty seats on display in Vancouver the other night for a Saturday night HNIC game.

But yeah, a sold out, profitable Flames Franchise is the next team that will move if they don't get a sweetheart arena deal in the immediate future.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Neither side really has much leverage now.

the Flames said they're done talking about a new arena, the mayor that they can't feel that they can deal with is back for another four years. They won't go crawling back to him. they'll do what they stated, they'll play in the dome until its far beyond obsolete.

Nenshi can't go back to the Flames and give them anything to come back to the table, he pretty much put a hard stamp on that during his campaign

In order to start a negotiation you have to have a common interest that brings both sides to the table. There isn't a common interest.

I would expect that in the next couple of weeks the Flames will re-iterate that they're not talking about a new building anymore.

I would guess the Olympics would be the catalyst to bring them back together.