[News] With the 54th overall pick the Flames select RW Hunter Smith

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Same amount of forwards Gaudreau's size before he was drafted.

Well, there are definitely more ~5'8" or shorter forwards in the NHL than there are those who are above ~6'6", but Gaudreau was also a 4th round pick.

[polak]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Ashasx I think you just personally overvalue a certain type of player, the more flashy dynamic type that puts up lots of points.

Guys like Kanzig, Smith, etc are never going to impress you because you don't value strong bottom pairing or 3rd or 4th line guys. You think that you should always be drafting for top end skill and not to fill a lineup.

What you are missing though is that the really good teams do a great job of drafting and developing those guys, as well as the top 9 players.

L.A. has done it with guys like Clifford (2nd), King (4th), Nolan (7th) , Lewis (1st).

Chicago with guys like Bickell (2nd), Shaw (5th), Bolland (2nd) , Hjalmarsson (4th).

And plenty of others examples on teams like the Rangers, and Bruins.

The issue is that for you if a guy like Kanzig, or Smith, who likely tops out as a 3rd liner or a bottom pairing d-man is waste of a 2nd or 3rd round pick, when really it's not the case.

I tend to agree with goalies but the Flames did have an organizational need and MacDonald was seen as one of the best in his age group, so it might be a strategic pick to get him there. If you were to flip the Hickey and MacDonald picks I am sure you would have no issue with it but unlikely they could take Hickey at 2 and MacDonald at 3.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that 3rd and 4th line guys are a dime a dozen and that there are players in the AHL that could step up right now and be just as effective as most of them.

I'm not saying players like that are not important. They are and they serve a role.

What I'm saying is that using a 2nd round pick on the OFF CHANCE that AT BEST he becomes a guy like that, is a waste. Most early picks who end up playing that role do so because they didn't live up to their potential and are relegated to bottom 6 minutes.

[PeteMoss]

Mason McDonald is trending well. I'm not big on taking goalies high in the draft, but when he's playing for Team Canada at the world juniors next year I suspect most will jump on board with the pick.

And in regards to a previous post - obviously you don't want all your 2nd rounders to end up as 4th line guys, but if every single one of them turn out that way and become full time NHLers you are doing better than most.

Go back over the Flames draft history and their most successful 2nd round picks - Steve Begin and Blair Betts were both guys who made careers out of being 4th line guys. Jarrett Stoll is really the only guy the Flames got in the 2nd round who wasn't a bottom of the roster player since Stephane Matteau and Joe Nieuwendyk in the 80s.

[ClubFlames]

So I guess Jack Glover is guaranteed to become an NHL'er than Hunter Smith or Mason McDonald. Next time we should ask Ashasx what his list is and submit it to Bettman on the draft floor so he can just read it, this way we can save money for the Flames by not sending our staff and pay for everything. Great plan.

Anyways, the worst way to draft is by need in the organization, you always pick the best player available no matter what unless you are taking chances in the 5/6/7 rounds because of the percentages.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Because a team is far more likely to draft an NHL skater in the early rounds than in the later. Therefore, if you use one of your early picks on a goaltender, you then use a later pick on a skater.

I agree with this partially but at the same time I don't think a general statement like this always works. Just because most of the time goaltenders are a crap shoot and many are drafted in later rounds doesn't mean say Carey Price didn't deserve to be picked 5th overall. Obviously that's how talented he was or was viewed. So if the Flames scouts create a list and feel certain players should be ranked in certain positions I think their just going based on the specific players talent in relation to the rest of the draft. That's how it should be. Statistics only mean so much because every single draft is drastically different. Some people think dmen are way more risky with high picks but look at the 2008 draft. Doughty, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Schenn, Myers, Karlsson were all drafted in top 15. If you look at the forwards after Stamkos there isn't really anything that great. Filatov, Wilson, Boedker, Bailey, Hodgson, Beach. If a team went by the rationale that forwards are a lot safer picks someone could have made a massive mistake. I think teams just have to rank players according to who they think are the best and go off that. Having other things make your decisions will probably result in you missing out on some solid players.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by ClubFlames

So I guess Jack Glover is guaranteed to become an NHL'er than Hunter Smith or Mason McDonald. Next time we should ask Ashasx what his list is and submit it to Bettman on the draft floor so he can just read it, this way we can save money for the Flames by not sending our staff and pay for everything. Great plan.

Anyways, the worst way to draft is by need in the organization, you always pick the best player available no matter what unless you are taking chances in the 5/6/7 rounds because of the percentages.

You completely misunderstood my position and never once did I guarantee anything.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I like it when teams go for homeruns at the draft. Why draft for 3rd and 4th line players when these are generally players you can pick up for free in free agency?

The Flames *were* swinging for a home run picking up a guy that large who may be a 3rd line power forward with decent hands with a 2nd round pick.

The hyperbolae, double talk and contradicting yourself is in full swing today.

[GioforPM]

I generally agree that you don't draft goalies in the first. And especially with an early first. One part of it is fan expectation - they want to see the high draft picks play asap, and goalies are the slowest to develop most of the time. And IMO the threat of a bust is way bigger.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I probably do, but I think that should be understandable.

I like it when teams go for homeruns at the draft. Why draft for 3rd and 4th line players when these are generally players you can pick up for free in free agency?

I agree to a point too, and I think picks like Gaudreau and Granlund are good examples of it, but their needs to be balance and occasionally you need to draft some guys that can fill out the bottom lines too.

The ability to just pick up good 3rd and 4th liners in the cap era is overstated.

Guys like Bickell, Clifford, King, Bouma that actually help you win are hard to find via free agency.

And if you do if you pick them up in free agency it means you are spending $1.5 to $2 million on guys that fill your bottom lines.

However if you draft them they usually cost you league minimum.

Look at all the Stanley cup winning rosters in the cap era, the 3rd and 4th lines and bottom pairing are usually drafted players.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Well, there are definitely more ~5'8" or shorter forwards in the NHL than there are those who are above ~6'6", but Gaudreau was also a 4th round pick.

Is that a fact?

I don't think there is anyone in the NHL as short and small as Gaudreau, fudged NHL measurements and all.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by polak

You seem to be ignoring the fact that 3rd and 4th line guys are a dime a dozen and that there are players in the AHL that could step up right now and be just as effective as most of them.

I'm not saying players like that are not important. They are and they serve a role.

What I'm saying is that using a 2nd round pick on the OFF CHANCE that AT BEST he becomes a guy like that, is a waste. Most early picks who end up playing that role do so because they didn't live up to their potential and are relegated to bottom 6 minutes.

Who says Smith is topping out as that guy though? With his size and some skill he could be a top 6 player, people here are writing him off since he isn't a ppg in junior.

Kanzig too, sure he is not offensive but the Flames organization seems to love him. Kept him long in training camp, and went as far as bringing him into the junior team they own.

Also the fact that good 3rd and 4th liners are dime a dozen is B.S. there is a reason that L.A. just extended their entire 4th line.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

The Flames *were* swinging for a home run picking up a guy that large who may be a 3rd line power forward with decent hands with a 2nd round pick.

The hyperbolae, double talk and contradicting yourself is in full swing today.

Uh, I don't see it.

Maybe he becomes that next.... I don't know. I can't really think of any star forward that is ~6'7", but the Flames weren't going for a homerun with this pick. This seems like a relatively safe bet for somebody who can play on the 4th line for a few minutes a night and spend the rest in the penalty box.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Is that a fact?

I don't think there is anyone in the NHL as short and small as Gaudreau, fudged NHL measurements and all.

If Gaudreau's measurements are fudged (they probably are) then so is everybody else.

You would probably be safe subtracting a inch from every player in the NHL.

[ClubFlames]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You completely misunderstood my position and never once did I guarantee anything.

The way you are berating Hunter Smith and pumping up Glover just because is a RH dman, it seems like it. Hunter Smith fills a need for our organization as well and has had a nice progression so far. To judge picks with only 3/4 of the year since drafted is just stupidity. Glover or whoever could turn out to be the worst player drafter in the 2nd round, as could Hunter or McDonald. You just have to be patient as fans and organization and just watch these kids develop.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Uh, I don't see it.

Maybe he becomes that next.... I don't know. I can't really think of any star forward that is ~6'7", but the Flames weren't going for a homerun with this pick. This seems like a relatively safe bet for somebody who can play on the 4th line for a few minutes a night and spend the rest in the penalty box.

This is getting ridiculous. Star forward?

This was a wasted pick because the Flames weren't aiming for a star forward with their 2nd round pick?

Why don't you enlighten us as to what potential star forward we missed out on (in your opinion) in the 2nd round that made this pick such a "waste"?

RW is a position of need for us all the way down the depth chart. Smith isn't going to turn into a top line or even 2nd line sniper... but to have a guy that big and physical who does have better than average hands and scoring would be a great return on that 2nd rounder even if he plays a secondary role for us in the future.

Acting like every 2nd round pick needs to turn into a "star" is complete nonsense.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Uh, I don't see it.

Maybe he becomes that next.... I don't know. I can't really think of any star forward that is ~6'7", but the Flames weren't going for a homerun with this pick. This seems like a relatively safe bet for somebody who can play on the 4th line for a few minutes a night and spend the rest in the penalty box.

I disagree.

I think they were hoping for a homerun, the homerun just also has a good chance of being a base hit if they don't make full contact.

They want that Milan Lucic type power forward (Lucic also only had 19 points in his draft year).

[polak]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Also the fact that good 3rd and 4th liners are dime a dozen is B.S. there is a reason that L.A. just extended their entire 4th line.

They just won two cups... You resign everyone you bloody can.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

This is getting ridiculous. Star forward?

This was a wasted pick because the Flames weren't aiming for a star forward with their 2nd round pick?

Why don't you enlighten us as to what potential star forward we missed out on (in your opinion) in the 2nd round that made this pick such a "waste"?

RW is a position of need for us all the way down the depth chart. Smith isn't going to turn into a top line or even 2nd line sniper... but to have a guy that big and physical who does have better than average hands and scoring would be a great return on that 2nd rounder even if he plays a secondary role for us in the future.

Acting like every 2nd round pick needs to turn into a "star" is complete nonsense.

You can replace the word star forward with impact forward, valuable player.

It's semantics. What's getting ridiculous is how you focus in on one word and completely ignore the rest of my argument.

I never argued that a 2nd round pick needs to turn into the star. But you know what? It sure is nice Gaudreau and Brodie have turned into stars. You can't find young, impacts players like them often in free agency.

I'm not really saying anything new here.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You can replace the word star forward with impact forward, valuable player.

It's semantics. What's getting ridiculous is how to focus in on one word and completely ignore the rest of my argument.

Your argument is completely flawed, and that's why you're shifting to your regular routine of being overly defensive.

You're correct about the semantics though... you're still insinuating a 2nd round pick is wasted if not used on a potential star / impact / valuable player.

Again, if that 2nd turned into Lance Bouma is it a wasted pick?

The entire problem is that you have a completely skewed and unrealistic take on what needs to happen with a 2nd rounder for it not to have been wasteful.

If Smith turns into anything close to a Bouma with a bit more offense, that is a home run with that pick. Even if he makes the roster in a 3rd or 4th line role, it's miles away from being a "waste".

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Not that I want to discuss this much further, but how many 6'7" forwards do you see in the NHL today? How many besides Brian Boyle aren't plugs or enforcers?

This is an extremely short-sited view of the issue.

First, kids are bigger today, and continue to get bigger. 6'7" used to be huge and unusual but it is not going to be as unusual going forward. There was a time when 6'4" or 5" was unusual, but saying that a guy didn't have a chance because there weren't many 6'4" guys before him would have been short-sited and misguided. Today's 6'7" is the 6'4" of a generation ago.

Second, the ability to coach skating skills has improved immensely. One of the biggest challenges for a big kid is dealing with co-ordination quickly enough to be able to keep up in the skating department. While that was an immense challenge in the past, it is less so now. Coaching can really improve a player's skating.

Saying that being 6'7" reduces his chances of being in the NHL because there haven't been a lot of 6'7" players in the NHL in the past is a ridiculous argument.