Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

And you see no problem with that? This is a law that makes you proud to be Russian?

How sad.

I tend to support this law, although I'm not zealot about it. This law doesn't make me "proud" to be Russian. It's just a law that I support, but not "I'm going out on the street to support it" type of support. My opinion about this law doesn't have anything with national pride though. If some other country had such law, I would also support it (as long, as I care about other country laws).

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are making things up. It is a law against gay propaganda. While, in theory, some bribed/ill-intended judge can take anything as propaganda (and I have no problem admitting that as I'm not making things up for the sake of the argument), this is not the intention of the law. For the sake of it, there are legal gay clubs in Moscow and they are running fine.

Here you can take a look at the map of gay clubs in Moscow. And no, I will not get imprisoned for posting it here.

He isn't making things up. The article that you linked to says: the word " homosexuality ", replacing it with the term "non-traditional sexual relations".

It basically makes the law more dangerous as it can now be used against anything that people want to label as non-traditional: Gay, Mixed-Race, etc.

I admit that I only see the part that says that foreigners will be jailed, not Russians. However, that doesn't make the law any better. Fining someone for speaking out about their right to their sexual orientation is not much better than jailing them. Especially in a culture where it is considered acceptable to assault someone because they are gay.

[Flashpoint]

From the BBC Q+A on the Russian law. Most of the problems with it (other than the massive massive homophobic bigotry), lie in how vague and open to interpretation it is.

Because we know security forces like police and government would NEVER take advantage of a vague law...

So what is this "propaganda" law?

The legislation passed in June amended Russia's child protection law with a clause covering "the propagandising of non-traditional sexual relations among minors". This prescribes fines for providing information about homosexuality to people under 18. These range from 4,000 roubles (£78; $121) for an individual to 1m roubles for organisations.

Critics say the amendment's loose wording, and its free interpretation by the authorities, effectively make any kind of public gay rights event in Russia impossible. Not that this would affect the situation in the capital, Moscow, where "gay pride" events have effectively been banned for 100 years by court order.

'Non-traditional sexual relations'?

The use of a Russian euphemism in the amendment, instead of a plain reference to homosexual relations, leaves an already controversial piece of legislation open to interpretation.

It also suggests that homosexuality (a word not mentioned anywhere in the amendment) is somehow alien to life in Russia, a country with a well-documented gay sub-culture stretching back centuries, which includes such famous figures as the composer Pyotr Tchaikovsky.

How much is the new law about domestic politics?

It is tempting to see it as a populist measure aimed at an easy target. One opinion poll taken earlier this year suggested there was overwhelming public backing for the new law. It also suggested that three-quarters of Russians considered homosexuality an illness or aberration.

The timing of the "gay propaganda" debate was interesting, coming in the first year of Mr Putin's new presidential term, after he had weathered the biggest anti-government protests since Soviet times. In the political propaganda war during the protests, pro-Kremlin bloggers sought to ridicule the opposition in the eyes of the Russian public by portraying them as gay rights campaigners.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23604142

So lets not BS about this just being about "propaganda". It's a hate bill giving massive latitude to state sponsored discrimination.

Oh, this FOI so I need sports content....

...how are the Russians planning on dealing with men's figure skating? Will they be arrested before or after appearing on the podium?

Perhaps Canada should send a men's pair. Hall and Eberle?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're a joke. Another source for you to dismiss.

"the average household net-adjusted disposable income is estimated at 15286 USD a year"

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/c...an-federation/

For the average Russian household (not individual, household) this fine would eat up approximately 15% of monthly income.

Eating 15% of monthly income is a long way from "not being able to afford to pay fine".

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I tend to support this law,

But why?

I respect others opinions, but I'll never understand advocating a law like this. If it is about 'saving the children', you're basically telling a gay Russian child that he/she is wrong to be who they are. It doesn't even make sense.

I'm assuming you're a heterosexual white Russian male. Correct me if I'm wrong. If true.........

When did you choose to be white? When did you choose to be heterosexual?

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I tend to support this law, although I'm not zealot about it. This law doesn't make me "proud" to be Russian. It's just a law that I support, but not "I'm going out on the street to support it" type of support.

Hmm. Sounds like a lot of South African whites during apartheid.

Or American southerners during school integration.

Bravo.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

From the BBC Q+A on the Russian law. Most of the problems with it (other than the massive massive homophobic bigotry), lie in how vague and open to interpretation it is.

Because we know security forces like police and government would NEVER take advantage of a vague law...

1. As you see, this law has a really huge support by russian citizen. Now think for a moment — can it be, that all those 140 millions of people, who actually LIVE in Russia are right, and you, who sit on the other side of the globe and judge by TV and internet is wrong? This is INTERNAL Russian law, they don't suggest other countries to follow. It is for good of RUSSIAN people and they obviously support it. Are you sure that you have better understanding of what is going on in Russia and what is better for Russians?

2. As you have pointed out, LGBT folks are afraid that law is vague and this can be taken advantage of. While there's no denial that this can - in theory - happen, and I have no problem admitting it, it is also obvious that this claim is not based on anything that actually happened this far. It is not the intention of the law, it is not what officials comment on, and it is not what Russian people support.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Eating 15% of monthly income is a long way from "not being able to afford to pay fine".

Are you serious? 15% of monthly income is a massive chunk of money. It likely takes up the entirety of the disposable income remaining after necessities, and that's assuming there's only one fine to deal with. Considering the broad range of actions, or simply just existing, that could be subject to the fine it's not at all unreasonable to expect people to be fined to the point that they are imprisoned for inability to pay.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Hmm. Sounds like a lot of South African whites during apartheid.

Or American southerners during school integration.

Bravo.

Is it ok to say that another person is like apartheid follower? If I say that you sound like nazi — just because I feel that you sound like nazi — will I not get banned or something?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pointman

1. As you see, this law has a really huge support by russian citizen. Now think for a moment — can it be, that all those 140 millions of people, who actually LIVE in Russia are right, and you, who sit on the other side of the globe and judge by TV and internet is wrong? This is INTERNAL Russian law, they don't suggest other countries to follow. It is for good of RUSSIAN people and they obviously support it. Are you sure that you have better understanding of what is going on in Russia and what is better for Russians?

If all of those 140 million people are against basic human rights and equality then yes, they are wrong. And they are scum.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Is it ok to say that another person is like apartheid follower? If I say that you sound like nazi — just because I feel that you sound like nazi — will I not get banned or something?

Seeing as you sound exactly like someone who supported apartheid, or the early rise of the Nazis, I don't see any reason for it. It's an accurate description.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by valo403

Are you serious? 15% of monthly income is a massive chunk of money. It likely takes up the entirety of the disposable income remaining after necessities, and that's assuming there's only one fine to deal with. Considering the broad range of actions, or simply just existing, that could be subject to the fine it's not at all unreasonable to expect people to be fined to the point that they are imprisoned for inability to pay.

Sorry, but you are stretching things well beyond any logical sense. You are trying to prove that a fine, that is lesser than poverty line, can potentially put people in jail. Just for the sake of making this law look worse than it actually is. If you have problem with the law (which I can understand), why don't you argue its intentions and realistic outcomes, not some hyperbole that you just imagined? Truth be told, if some person can't pay such a small fine — be it gay propaganda fine or taking a bus without paying a ticket fine — he will most likely be let go.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by valo403

Seeing as you sound exactly like someone who supported apartheid, or the early rise of the Nazis, I don't see any reason for it. It's an accurate description.

I'm half-jewish. To answer earlier question, I'm heterosexual white (half-russian, half-jewish) male ateist (just in case someone cares about religion too).

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by valo403

If all of those 140 million people are against basic human rights and equality then yes, they are wrong. And they are scum.

Naming whole nation as "scum" is a bit overboard and should get you some punishment in free democratic country, shouldn't it?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Sorry, but you are stretching things well beyond any logical sense. You are trying to prove that a fine, that is lesser than poverty line, can potentially put people in jail. Just for the sake of making this law look worse than it actually is. If you have problem with the law (which I can understand), why don't you argue its intentions and realistic outcomes, not some hyperbole that you just imagined? Truth be told, if some person can't pay such a small fine — be it gay propaganda fine or taking a bus without paying a ticket fine — he will most likely be let go.

You really are unbelievable. 15% of your monthly income is not a small amount. People spend around 10% of their income on food.

Nothing I have said is even remotely outside of the realm of possibility, it's actually quite likely to be the case. Sorry, but your request to just let the Russian justice system take care of things isn't going to pass.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Naming whole nation as "scum" is a bit overboard and should get you some punishment in free democratic country, shouldn't it?

Note the use of "if all" in my post.

Anyone who supports this law is scum in my books.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are making things up.

Well obviously, it was a contrived example to attempt to illustrate the complete nonsense that the law is. Mixed race couples aren't (EDIT oops mean) are "non-traditional sexual relationships"? That's certainly been used as a reason to support racism in the past, this is no different.

I guess it all depends on your specific definition of "non-traditional sexual relationships", which is kind of the point, picking the definition which happens to go the way that fits one's particular bigotry without encompassing the other bigotry that one doesn't agree with.

Would you support this law being used to prosecute propaganda that promoted mixed-race sexual relationships? If not, why is it different?

Originally Posted by Pointman

It is a law against gay propaganda.

It's a law to ensure that the bigotry of the adults is safely passed down to the children without being challenged.

Originally Posted by Pointman

While, in theory, some bribed/ill-intended judge can take anything as propaganda (and I have no problem admitting that as I'm not making things up for the sake of the argument), this is not the intention of the law. For the sake of it, there are legal gay clubs in Moscow and they are running fine.

So the intent of the law is to make sure that anyone that supports equality for humans can't communicate their message and combat any disinformation that the "teh gay is bad and scary" crowd spreads. That's somehow ok? I see it as complete admission that indoctrination and isolation from better ideas is the only way to keep bad ideas.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Here you can take a look at the map of gay clubs in Moscow. And no, I will not get imprisoned for posting it here.

You can be gay, you just can't tell any children that it's ok and they don't need to commit suicide because they're gay. Awesome.

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

But why?

I respect others opinions, but I'll never understand advocating a law like this. If it is about 'saving the children', you're basically telling a gay Russian child that he/she is wrong to be who they are.

It's more about making sure that the children are indoctrinated without any alternative views to possibly "corrupt" them. The message to gay children doesn't matter, it's keeping the message that "being gay isn't bad" away from non-gay children.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I'm half-jewish. To answer earlier question, I'm heterosexual white (half-russian, half-jewish) male ateist (just in case someone cares about religion too).

And?

If this law was aimed at jews you'd still support it I assume?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

But why?

I respect others opinions, but I'll never understand advocating a law like this. If it is about 'saving the children', you're basically telling a gay Russian child that he/she is wrong to be who they are. It doesn't even make sense.

When did you choose to be white? When did you choose to be heterosexual?

It's not about telling gay child that he's wrong to be who they are. It's about preventing gay people from swaying children into their gay activities. And it IS an issue in Russia. Otherwise this law would not get so much support from Russian people. And yes this law IS vague and it can, in theory, be abused. I would rather have it worded more precise and impossible to abuse. Nonetheless, it is good law for Russia in its current situation, unless you assume, that all those numberless russians who support it are all clueless idiots, who have no idea about what's happening in their own lives.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

He doesn't need to say it, he came charging into this thread defending this garbage law rather intensly. Stinks like national pride to me, but I will await his anwser to be sure.

people like you are no better. I mean really people like you need to stop assuming that people who don't condemn a law are therefor supporting it.