2022: The year the world returns to war?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It was accidental. Do you think Putin is personally responsible for it? Does it make Reagan personally responsible for this one:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

No. Putin the trustworthy said it wasn't Russia so it's irrelevant

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No. Putin the trustworthy said it wasn't Russia so it's irrelevant

No one actually ever claimed it was Russia who shut that plane. Most believe it was russia-backed rebels, using Russian SAM (or whatever it's called in English). That's probably true. Still, it's not even remotely close to many Iraqis civilians killed by regular US troops because Bush mistakenly thought they had some weapons of mass destruction.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No one actually ever claimed it was Russia who shut that plane. Most believe it was russia-backed rebels, using Russian SAM (or whatever it's called in English). That's probably true. Still, it's not even remotely close to many Iraqis civilians killed by regular US troops because Bush mistakenly thought they had some weapons of mass destruction.

What started as whataboutism is now goal post shifting. Ok I'll play, how about Putin's war crimes in Chechnya?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

What started as whataboutism is now goal post shifting. Ok I'll play, how about Putin's war crimes in Chechnya?

There surely were crimes committed in Chechnya by both sides, and this includes Putin. Not sure if those count as "war crimes", because it wasn't technically a war. Otherwise you might as well talk about war crimes by Ukrainian government against rebels.

Still, there's some blood on Putin's hands, no doubt about it.

[nik-]

I can't imagine having a leader who basically stole so much from the people that my country was basically a backwater and then going to bat for him. Russia is essentially a rusted out Pinto with an exhaust. It's so loud it distracts some people from what a piece of #### it is.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Pointman

There surely were crimes committed in Chechnya by both sides, and this includes Putin. Not sure if those count as "war crimes", because it wasn't technically a war. Otherwise you might as well talk about war crimes by Ukrainian government against rebels.

Still, there's some blood on Putin's hands, no doubt about it.

Wait, you mean the rebels fighting back Russian aggression? Sorry, love ya Pointy, but Putin needs to back right off.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Wait, you mean the rebels fighting back Russian aggression? Sorry, love ya Pointy, but Putin needs to back right off.

I meant to say that Putin's military offensive against Chechnya is not technically a "war" similarly like Kiev's military offensive against Donetsk People Republic is also not technically a "war". Both were government fighting against rebels within their borders.

[White Out 403]

Can we stop with this bull#### about us promising not to expand NATO? There is no agreement, full stop. That German piece is horse#### from a country that has anchored itself to a dictator and a 3rd world country with a giant nuclear arsenal. If Ukraine wants to join NATO, tough titty said the kitty. The idea that Russia can invade a sovereign nation to prevent them from joining a defensive alliance to... protect them from invasion only proves that Ukraine should be joining ####ing NATO.

God Russia sucks.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nik-

I can't imagine having a leader who basically stole so much from the people that my country was basically a backwater and then going to bat for him. Russia is essentially a rusted out Pinto with an exhaust. It's so loud it distracts some people from what a piece of #### it is.

I was surprised to learn Russia’s GDP per capita is lower than Romania’s.

But the fact Russia is a corrupt oligarchy gives the West leverage. The oligarchs have most of their wealth (not to mention families) stashed in places like London and New York. If Putin goes rogue, Western governments can make things uncomfortable for his backers and cronies.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by nik-

I can't imagine having a leader who basically stole so much from the people that my country was basically a backwater and then going to bat for him. Russia is essentially a rusted out Pinto with an exhaust. It's so loud it distracts some people from what a piece of #### it is.

Its very sad to see that there are still people that think being a Russian patriot means they have to support Putin. Such a beautiful country filled with great people, I hope they shed his dictatorship someday.

Funny how Putin shouldn't have been eligible to run again in the next election then just changes the rules to allow it. Oh and the opposition leader can't run at all, what a great coincidence.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Its very sad to see that there are still people that think being a Russian patriot means they have to support Putin. Such a beautiful country filled with great people, I hope they shed his dictatorship someday.

Funny how Putin shouldn't have been eligible to run again in the next election then just changes the rules to allow it. Oh and the opposition leader can't run at all, what a great coincidence.

He should be thankful Putin has even let him live. All the others eventually end up dead, which is a pretty big coincidence. Oh well! Go Putin!

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I was surprised to learn Russia’s GDP per capita is lower than Romania’s.

But the fact Russia is a corrupt oligarchy gives the West leverage. The oligarchs have most of their wealth (not to mention families) stashed in places like London and New York. If Putin goes rogue, Western governments can make things uncomfortable for his backers and cronies.

GDP per Capita is weird list. It has Iran, Panama, Trinidad and Tobago ahead of China. Total GDP Russia is 11th in the world. Canada is 9th.

For what it worth, I have been in Canada for one week. I have briefly visited Toronto, Winnipeg, Saskatoon and Vancouver. I haven't really noticed much different in terms of wealth or in things like houses, buses, streets and such between Canada and Russia. Vancouver has incredible scenery though, I give you that. And I by no means want to downplay your country - in fact I wanted to move over there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...al)_per_capita

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Pointman

GDP per Capita is weird list. It has Iran, Panama, Trinidad and Tobago ahead of China. Total GDP Russia is 11th in the world. Canada is 9th.

For what it worth, I have been in Canada for one week. I have briefly visited Toronto, Winnipeg, Saskatoon and Vancouver. I haven't really noticed much different in terms of wealth or in things like houses, buses, streets and such between Canada and Russia. Vancouver has incredible scenery though, I give you that. And I by no means want to downplay your country - in fact I wanted to move over there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...al)_per_capita

Well, yeah. Divide any number by a Billion and its going to be a much smaller number.

[Street Pharmacist]

Whataboutism? Check
Moving goal posts? Check


Now we've added both-sidesism

Putin is a brutal dictator who is wanting to keep his grip on power and expand his territory. There are no reasonable other explanations here. I don't want to hear "but Reagan was bad too", "US has blood on their hands from other stuff", or "Both sides are to blame", or "but NATO".

Putin is on the brink of invading a sovereign nation and taking control while killing tens of thousands or more. It needs to stop and he's the reason it is happening. There isn't any propaganda that can change that.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Whataboutism? Check
Moving goal posts? Check


Now we've added both-sidesism

Putin is a brutal dictator who is wanting to keep his grip on power and expand his territory. There are no reasonable other explanations here. I don't want to hear "but Reagan was bad too", "US has blood on their hands from other stuff", or "Both sides are to blame", or "but NATO".

Putin is on the brink of invading a sovereign nation and taking control while killing tens of thousands or more. It needs to stop and he's the reason it is happening. There isn't any propaganda that can change that.

Putin: "O rly? Challenge Accepted. Hold my vodka..."

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Its very sad to see that there are still people that think being a Russian patriot means they have to support Putin. Such a beautiful country filled with great people, I hope they shed his dictatorship someday.

Funny how Putin shouldn't have been eligible to run again in the next election then just changes the rules to allow it. Oh and the opposition leader can't run at all, what a great coincidence.

Everyone in Russia knows Putin is a power junkie. He also does not care too much on whether he breaks the law or not. Yet, he's quite a competent leader. I would take Putin over having a choice between Trump and Biden. While Putin's lust for power is real, his corruption level is overrated. Think of how many in the west thought that Russia would bribe referees to ensure our hockey victory in 2014 Olympics. Or how KHL allegedly was fixed to let Putin's favorite team to win. That didn't age well.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Everyone in Russia knows Putin is a power junkie. He also does not care too much on whether he breaks the law or not. Yet, he's quite a competent leader. I would take Putin over having a choice between Trump and Biden. While Putin's lust for power is real, his corruption level is overrated. Think of how many in the west thought that Russia would bribe referees to ensure our hockey victory in 2014 Olympics. Or how KHL was fixed to let Putin's favorite team to win. That didn't age well.

Or how they might systematically cheat at the highest level of sport, running a state sponsored doping program. Good times!

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Whataboutism? Check
Moving goal posts? Check


Now we've added both-sidesism

Putin is a brutal dictator who is wanting to keep his grip on power and expand his territory. There are no reasonable other explanations here. I don't want to hear "but Reagan was bad too", "US has blood on their hands from other stuff", or "Both sides are to blame", or "but NATO".

Putin is on the brink of invading a sovereign nation and taking control while killing tens of thousands or more. It needs to stop and he's the reason it is happening. There isn't any propaganda that can change that.

This is quite a caricature view of Putin. There's nothing of what you described that is actually happening - at least for now.

Putin is not driven by desire to expand his territory. It would be nothing short of lunacy on Putin's part to start a war for the sake of adding that Novorossiya region to what already is the largest country on earth. And Putin, for all his flaws, is no lunatic. His goal is to show off the West.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Or how they might systematically cheat at the highest level of sport, running a state sponsored doping program. Good times!

We sure did. And you intentionally broke Kharlamov's ankle to win Summit series. What's your point anyway? The last thing this thread needs is turning into a pissing contest.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Everyone in Russia knows Putin is a power junkie. He also does not care too much on whether he breaks the law or not. Yet, he's quite a competent leader. I would take Putin over having a choice between Trump and Biden. While Putin's lust for power is real, his corruption level is overrated. Think of how many in the west thought that Russia would bribe referees to ensure our hockey victory in 2014 Olympics. Or how KHL was fixed to let Putin's favorite team to win. That didn't age well.

He's competent as consolidating power. Actually leading the country.... Meh.