Their last proposal wasn't a 100% repayment proposal. Unless you're saying that the Flames are entitled to not have to pay any property tax (y'know like all us regular folk do) the proceeds of such they benefit from.
Regardless, if the Flames are so petty that they can't swallow a tiny bit of pride and come back to the table then by all means the City can make some inconsequential "concession" to placate the egos at CS&E.
In fact, the City has already publicly dangled a carrot to lure CSEC back to the table by indicating that there was still room for negotiation on parts of their proposal.
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I still think that characterizing payment of property taxes as "repayment" of a "loan" is very misleading (even disingenuous). My municipality didn't loan me anything and yet still seems to expect an annual "repayment".
And if your current situation doesn't not require 'repayment', and a new situation does require that 'repayment'?
I have the feeling if Nenshi wins the election, CSEC will rather pursue an Olympic bid to try and obtain federal funding than renegotiate. Risky since this pushes the timeline out a lot more, but their best bet if they don't want to pony up more dollars for the arena. Also allows them to save some face.
I think you're underestimating the Flames ownership. I don't believe for a second that they're coming back to the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with an offer that doesn't include 100% repayment, because again - I don't think the City is going to find an investing partner willing to put up the level of investment in Nenshi's proposal.
It's an election year. The Flames had a card to play when negotiations weren't going their way - pull back from the table, have a clear favorite candidate who's not Nenshi, and attempt to make the arena deal an election issue. If they win, then bully for them.
If they lose, they come back to the table, they do a deal, and we all move on.
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And if your current situation doesn't not require 'repayment', and a new situation does require that 'repayment'?
Well, I was faced with that very decision some 20 years ago when I had to decide whether or not to move out of the cozy confines of my mother's basement and start paying rent (which included the transferred cost of property taxes) on what I hoped would quickly become my sex palace. In hindsight, I should have just stayed in my mother's basement.
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I think you're underestimating the Flames ownership. I don't believe for a second that they're coming back to the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with an offer that doesn't include 100% repayment, because again - I don't think the City is going to find an investing partner willing to put up the level of investment in Nenshi's proposal.
Completely agree. The City needs to come off of a 100% repayment based strategy.
However, ownership needs to come off of a 10%-20%* contribution strategy. Prepayment of rent does not constitute a contribution, it constitutes rent.
*To clarify, the time value of money certainly means upfront rent payment has an aspect of true contribution. $275M spread over 35 years at 4% has an NPV of about $150M. So it represents a $125M Flames contribution (25% of the $500M arena). Add in that the Flames' $500M ignores land value, Saddledome demo, and infrastructure tie-ins to get to my assumed 10%-20% contribution.
I have the feeling if Nenshi wins the election, CSEC will rather pursue an Olympic bid to try and obtain federal funding than renegotiate. Risky since this pushes the timeline out a lot more, but their best bet if they don't want to pony up more dollars for the arena. Also allows them to save some face.
CSEC isn't in a position to pursue an Olympic bid, only the city is.
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To some people, paying property taxes is different than repaying a loan.
I feel like such a sucker.
When I bought my place, I didn't even think to ask the city to pay for 1/3 of it with the promise that I'd "pay them back" by paying property taxes on the place for the next 30 years.
The jerks still expect me to pay property taxes on it anyway.
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Completely agree. The City needs to come off of a 100% repayment based strategy.
However, ownership needs to come off of a 10%-20%* contribution strategy. Prepayment of rent does not constitute a contribution, it constitutes rent.
*To clarify, the time value of money certainly means upfront rent payment has an aspect of true contribution. $275M spread over 35 years at 4% has an NPV of about $150M. So it represents a $125M Flames contribution (25% of the $500M arena). Add in that the Flames' $500M ignores land value, Saddledome demo, and infrastructure tie-ins to get to my assumed 10%-20% contribution.
Oh yeah, I’m not meaning to come off as saying CSECs deal should be accepted - I just think Nenshi’s proposal is every bit as “crazy” as CSECs proposal because it’s completely disconnected from what the market would bear.
As much as this thread seems to paint this as CSEC being at fault, it really is an astonishing failure on both sides.
Well, I was faced with that very decision some 20 years ago when I had to decide whether or not to move out of the cozy confines of my mother's basement and start paying rent (which included the transferred cost of property taxes) on what I hoped would quickly become my sex palace. In hindsight, I should have just stayed in my mother's basement.
Ha nice.
And I expect the Flames are content to stay in Nenshi's basement until a guaranteed 'sex palace' is offered up.
When I bought my place, I didn't even think to ask the city to pay for 1/3 of it with the promise that I'd "pay them back" by paying property taxes on the place for the next 30 years.
The jerks still expect me to pay property taxes on it anyway.
Ha nice.
And I expect the Flames are content to stay in Nenshi's basement until a guaranteed 'sex palace' is offered up.
Correct. I haven't done a full financial analysis of the city's proposal, but the fact that the city has likely built an interest rate into the CRL and ticket tax frontage suggests that on an NPV basis, the City's proposal is much worse for the owners than the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 being advertised by the city.
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Ha nice.
And I expect the Flames are content to stay in Nenshi's basement until a guaranteed 'sex palace' is offered up.
Unfortunately, it'll be you, me and the other Calgary tax payers who end up getting screwed in this new sex palace.
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Correct. I haven't done a full financial analysis of the city's proposal, but the fact that the city has likely built an interest rate into the CRL and ticket tax frontage suggests that on an NPV basis, the City's proposal is much worse for the owners than the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 being advertised by the city.
As you say, I don't think we really know. However, the City has indicated that details regarding ticket tax financing in particular are open for negotiation.
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"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
I have the feeling if Nenshi wins the election, CSEC will rather pursue an Olympic bid to try and obtain federal funding than renegotiate. Risky since this pushes the timeline out a lot more, but their best bet if they don't want to pony up more dollars for the arena. Also allows them to save some face.
