Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

"Only after seeing all aspects of the negotiations could I form an opinion of what role taxpayers could and should play.# Without knowing those details I could not in good conscience offer an opinion on the merits of city contributions including land, infrastructure tie-ins, road network expansion, or even Saddledome demolition."


AKA it would be great if I had a plan, but I don't.

Jesus Christ Bill, all the information is out there. Educate yourself.

Yikes, I was cringing at that response. He wants to be mayor, and can’t form simple opinions on simple issues that happen regularly in city planning matters?

How is seeing the negotiation history going to inform you on the opinion you should have?

He’s completely clueless.

[GordonBlue]

maybe he's smart this time. the best way to win is to have no opinion on anything.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Yikes, I was cringing at that response. He wants to be mayor, and can’t form simple opinions on simple issues that happen regularly in city planning matters?

How is seeing the negotiation history going to inform you on the opinion you should have?

He’s completely clueless.

Oh, I'm sure he can form simple opinions. But what he's most likely doing is trying to position himself as the "not-Nenshi" candidate. That means alluding the idea that he's going to be different than Nenshi without giving an concrete examples of how. That way anyone who doesn't like Nenshi can imagine that Smith will be different in that particular capacity.

In that way, everyone gets to dream up whatever their ideal mayor would be and hopefully find that in Smith.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

maybe he's smart this time. the best way to win is to have no opinion on anything.

That's his platform. Say as little as possible and hope people dislike Nenshi enough that they'll vote him in.

And it looks like it's gonna work. Get ready to be raped by CSEC, Calgary.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Joborule

That's his platform. Say as little as possible and hope people dislike Nenshi enough that they'll vote him in.

And it looks like it's gonna work. Get ready to be raped by CSEC, Calgary.

Or perhaps it’ll be a good thing to have someone, not necessarily Smith, go into the negotiations realizing the Calgary market isn’t going to get a 100% privately funded arena.

The way Nenshi and his group handled the negotiations cost the city it’s only known potential partner in an arena project. Maybe there are others out there, but CSEC is the only one known to the public at this time. Not saying Nenshi should have accepted CSEC's deal, but his hard stance on 100% repayment won’t work for any investor in this project that we publicly know about.

Hopefully, whoever is elected, can find a partner to build a new arena.

Also, to say “Get ready to be raped by CSEC” because of who people are or aren’t going to vote for is ridiculous.

[evman150]

If Nenshi loses, I bet he runs for the Liberals in 2019 and ends up in a (lower level) cabinet position. Like him or loathe him, I don't think his political life rests on this vote.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by evman150

If Nenshi loses, I bet he runs for the Liberals in 2019 and ends up in a (lower level) cabinet position. Like him or loathe him, I don't think his political life rests on this vote.

I bet, once BS craps the bed as mayor(he will), Nenshi will look even better as a candidate.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Or perhaps it’ll be a good thing to have someone, not necessarily Smith, go into the negotiations realizing the Calgary market isn’t going to get a 100% privately funded arena.

The way Nenshi and his group handled the negotiations cost the city it’s only known potential partner in an arena project. Maybe there are others out there, but CSEC is the only one known to the public at this time. Not saying Nenshi should have accepted CSEC's deal, but his hard stance on 100% repayment won’t work for any investor in this project that we publicly know about.

If you actually believe that the Flames are truly done with negotiating if Nenshi wins the election, then there's not much of a debate to be had.

CSEC is just playing politics right now. (Which is extremely sleazy) They will get an arena deal done with Nenshi or Smith. It's just one would be much more economically favorable over the other.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Joborule

If you actually believe that the Flames are truly done with negotiating if Nenshi wins the election, then there's not much of a debate to be had.

CSEC is just playing politics right now. (Which is extremely sleazy) They will get an arena deal done with Nenshi or Smith. It's just one would be much more economically favorable over the other.

I think you're underestimating the Flames ownership. I don't believe for a second that they're coming back to the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with an offer that doesn't include 100% repayment, because again - I don't think the City is going to find an investing partner willing to put up the level of investment in Nenshi's proposal.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think you're underestimating the Flames ownership. I don't believe for a second that they're coming back to the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with an offer that doesn't include 100% repayment, because again - I don't think the City is going to find an investing partner willing to put up the level of investment in Nenshi's proposal.

Agree to disagree then. I feel CSEC knows they'll make a lot more with a new arena even if they have to pay rent/property taxes than they would moving the team elsewhere. Especially if they want to get into real estate, and develop around the arena. They'll just be able to make even more without having to pay an annual fee to the city.

They're just making a strong bluff in the public battle since they want to see if they can alter the negotiating environment. (Council changes)

[calgaryblood]

The Flames are waiting until after the election then will be back negotiating no matter who the mayor is.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The Flames are waiting until after the election then will be back negotiating no matter who the mayor is.

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

But why would the city fold?

CSEC bluffed and the city of calgary, and all of its residents, called that bluff and laughed in their faces.

I guess maybe to let KK and the Flames save some face after their embarrassing fiascos the city might take the higher ground and invite the Flames back to the negotiating table. But I doubt they'll change their proposal much.

It is the Flames who are desperate for the new building, much more so than the city is. Flames have a weak negotiating position here.

Caveat to all this being the Olympics. But I hope the city plays hardball with the IOC too. They need us more than we need them.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

Why would the city approach them? Especially if Nenshi is in charge. He isn't in a rush. The Flames are.

[monkeyman]

The only way the city folds is if CSEC has bought themselves enough council seats.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

To some people, paying property taxes is different than repaying a loan.

[stone hands]

For me it has nothing to do with property taxes, it's that we have enough public needs that we don't have a few hundred million to gift some guys who own a hockey team. That's not what public funds should be for, it's for infrastructure and schools, not paying a private companies capex for them

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

I still think that characterizing payment of property taxes as "repayment" of a "loan" is very misleading (even disingenuous). My municipality didn't loan me anything and yet still seems to expect an annual "repayment".

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

Their last proposal wasn't a 100% repayment proposal. Unless you're saying that the Flames are entitled to not have to pay any property tax (y'know like all us regular folk do) the proceeds of such they benefit from.

Regardless, if the Flames are so petty that they can't swallow a tiny bit of pride and come back to the table then by all means the City can make some inconsequential "concession" to placate the egos at CS&E.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's quite speculative, and I don't agree. I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think CSEC is back at the table until the City of Calgary approaches them with something other than a 100% repayment proposal.

Saying the City's proposal is a 100% repayment model is completely wrong . It comes from the CSEC talking points which anyone with one finance class can tell you are total BS.

First, lets assume CSEC pays $3.57Mln per year in rent for 35 years - which you claim is a 100% repayment of the city's $125 million investment. If we actually discount these cashflows at 7% per year, the true value repaid to the City is $38.7 Mln in today's dollars. This would not even cover the financing costs of the City's investment, let alone repay the capital amount. At most with an annual rental payment (or property tax) the city is asking CSEC to help with the burden of borrowing the city's share of investment.

Second, CSEC claims that the ticket surcharge is part of their contribution. Which might even be more insane than a non discounted 35 year repayment plan. We all know that ticket prices will increase in a new arena (see Edmonton), by a much wider margin than the ticket surcharge. CSEC argues that they would otherwise be able to collect this surcharge for themselves, but this "extra" ticket revenue only exists because of the new arena. And guess what, CSEC inst building the arena all by themselves. CSEC wants us to believe that all additional revenue from increased ticket prices is only attributable to their portion of the investment, and the city's portion of investment does nothing to generate additional revenue.

A ticket surcharge is actually paid for by the city, as it is their share of incremental revenue generated by the arena investment.

CSEC is pushing the Edmonton deal on Calgary, and I hope we are not desperate enough to take it.