Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

If you go back, many,many posters thought the mental health statement was questionable or wrong. Not much of an argument there. That wasn’t your argument though. You said the Flames should have done something because they “knew”, well before that statement was made (which was almost certainly drafted with Dubé and his counsel)

In fairness, my original post goes back to glass houses and then the assertion that the Flames didn't know until Dube was charged. An assertion I disagree with. If the Flames didn't know Dube was involved it was intentional by them.

I've suggested the Flames had other options, including ones that could cost them money perhaps, but if bringing in Hart for the Oilers brings them in money, is there much difference? Again, back to these organizations not actually caring about anything but money. I'm just saying there's a problem with hockey culture and ignoring wrongdoing simply because of the logo they are wearing isn't going to solve it.

Also, I mean I'm guilty as anyone, but bringing up the Oilers at all in this thread should be considered an issue when they aren't involved...yet.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

And I do care. I'm not suggesting the Flames are as bad as Dube, if the allegations are true, but I don't support the Flames handling of it. I think everyone should.

Don't snip my post to alter the meaning. That's a dick move.
I was saying I don't really care about the social media post.

[Enoch Root]

Until OptimalTates backs up the claim that he knew, and the Flames knew, this is just trolling. And pretty disgusting trolling.

[cam_calderon]

The president's son was on the team. Do you really believe they never once discussed the matter?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

The president's son was on the team. Do you really believe they never once discussed the matter?

'discussed the matter' and 'knew' are VERY different thinks

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Until OptimalTates backs up the claim that he knew, and the Flames knew, this is just trolling. And pretty disgusting trolling.

Yeah, some people confuse knowing with suspicion

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I never said they wouldn't keep him. I'm saying they let him walk because they knew he was involved in 2022. They would have offered him a lot more than league minimum if they thought he wasn't. But I'm not defending them. I'm just saying they knew, just like the Flames knew Dube was involved in 2022. That's my point. It was open who was involved. Seems you agree.

I mean, we can go through pretty much every team (look at Lemieux's Penguins and Quinn) and probably all of them have shown they don't give a #### as long as they think the fans will continue to pay for their tickets. At least St. Louis was willing to give Gilmour away, but I imagine they have their own skeletons. Maybe not.

But I mean with the Flames using the good-will they had accumulated with the Kylington situation by bringing up mental health for a player they knew was accused of rape was bull####. No better than what the Oilers will do. So again, my point is glass houses.

Sorry, but you’re off here.

Dube came to the team with a mental health issue. When that happens an employer MUST take it at face value and only state that as the message.
Anything else opens up a lot of issues on the employer.

The Flames did not “bring up” mental health. Dube did. They had to follow it.

[Strange Brew]

Yeah I’m sure the Flames wished they had used different wording in the social media post. It’s probably time to get over that.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

Sorry, but you’re off here.

Dube came to the team with a mental health issue. When that happens an employer MUST take it at face value and only state that as the message.
Anything else opens up a lot of issues on the employer.

No they absolutely don't lol. They may have to grant the leave, which I'm not arguing. If anything I'm saying they should have got him away from the team earlier, but they don't have to send out any specific message or one at all. They didn't with Kylington. The original message, a soundbite from Treliving, was family matter, which I'm sure they discussed with Kylington but the point is they could have simply said Dube has been granted a leave from the team and not brought up mental health, that was a choice made by the Flames.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

No they absolutely don't lol. They may have to grant the leave, which I'm not arguing. If anything I'm saying they should have got him away from the team earlier, but they don't have to send out any specific message or one at all. They didn't with Kylington.

Treliving said in September of that year that Kylington would be away for personal family reasons and explained it wasn't a substance abuse issue.

Regarding some of the other "options" you presented, I think it's important to remember there is a union involved with its own processes and expectations, and they have a lot of sway.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Treliving said in September of that year that Kylington would be away for personal family reasons and explained it wasn't a substance abuse issue.

Yep, agreed and edit my post prior to reading yours. No reason the Flames had to bring up mental health or make any public statement.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Yep, agreed and edit my post prior to reading yours. No reason the Flames had to bring up mental health or make any public statement.

Ok, but does that really put the Flames in the same ethical space as the Oilers to the point we shouldn't criticize them for employing people like Bowman, Kane, Perry, etc?

This really doesn't feel like a glass houses situation.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Ok, but does that really put the Flames in the same ethical space as the Oilers to the point we shouldn't criticize them for employing people like Bowman, Kane, Perry, etc?.

Sure we should criticize them as long as we're willing to criticize the Flames for their handling of the alleged rapist Dube.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Sure we should criticize them as long as we're willing to criticize the Flames for their handling of the alleged rapist Dube.

I've seen lots of criticism aimed at the Flames for the Dube situation on this very forum.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Woah. Wrong. 100% wrong. He was accused. He was accused in 2018 and a settlement was paid in 2022. This is the problem we have.

He was NOT "accused" at the time, nor did anybody have any concrete evidence that he was "involved". Yes...he (allegedly AT THE TIME) was "present" at the hotel room...but he was NOT named publicly as an "accused" person until the London Police filed charges.

In 2018 there was an investigation into a variety of unnamed players NONE OF WHOM were charged at the time. Some time later Hockey Canada paid a settlement under terms that WERE NOT DISCLOSED PUBLICLY. So...until the charges were filed against the five, there was NO public "accusation".




You can't just make crap up to suit your case.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

No they absolutely don't lol. They may have to grant the leave, which I'm not arguing. If anything I'm saying they should have got him away from the team earlier, but they don't have to send out any specific message or one at all. They didn't with Kylington. The original message, a soundbite from Treliving, was family matter, which I'm sure they discussed with Kylington but the point is they could have simply said Dube has been granted a leave from the team and not brought up mental health, that was a choice made by the Flames.

First off, none of this is a laughing matter. Using “lol” greatly diminishes your position.

Second off, Dube came to the team advising he needed time off for a mental health issue. If the team does not use that message, as provided by the player, there can be ramifications.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

First off, none of this is a laughing matter. Using “lol” greatly diminishes your position.

Second off, Dube came to the team advising he needed time off for a mental health issue. If the team does not use that message, as provided by the player, there can be ramifications.

Clearly OpTates is not familiar with employment law or union agreements, but does seem to be under the impression that the club can do whatever it wants whenever it suits them him.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

First off, none of this is a laughing matter. Using “lol” greatly diminishes your position.

Second off, Dube came to the team advising he needed time off for a mental health issue. If the team does not use that message, as provided by the player, there can be ramifications.

Lol. this whole mess started because someone wanted to do a driveby against the Oilers for a joke but saying lol is wrong. They don't have to release a public statement. They didn't with Kylington. They didn't need to with Dube. It was a choice. One I, and others, disagreed with.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Clearly OpTates is not familiar with employment law or union agreements, but does seem to be under the impression that the club can do whatever it wants whenever it suits them him.

Good thing about laws is they are available for review. Where is it stated that you have to provide a specific message for an alleged rapist about to be charged? No, the Flames did not have to make a public statement.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

First off, none of this is a laughing matter. Using “lol” greatly diminishes your position.

Second off, Dube came to the team advising he needed time off for a mental health issue. If the team does not use that message, as provided by the player, there can be ramifications.

Well no they don’t need to use a message provided by the employee.

But again, it’s a social media post and in no way is a complete representation of how the Flames handled the Dube situation.