Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by 3rd liner

Oilers brass have already reached out to all defendants: "How you doin'?".

Meanwhile the Flames are just hoping they get through this difficult time on their mental health.

Glass houses bro.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Meanwhile the Flames are just hoping they get through this difficult time on their mental health.

Glass houses bro.

Don't get it...

One team paused their relationship with a player as soon as it became apparent he was a suspect in a disgusting act.

The other hires multiple players after their former teams terminated their contracts because they could no longer employ them based on their disgusting acts.

Surely you understand the difference...

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Don't get it...

One team paused their relationship with a player as soon as it became apparent he was a suspect in a disgusting act.

No they didn't. Everyone knew Dube was involved when his agent said they would sue anyone who said any wrongdoing took place. You think it was a coincidence that the Senators didn't sign Formenton? It wasn't even an open secret, it was simply open.

It's the same ownership who jumped at the chance to get Gilmour when he was accused of raping his child's babysitter.

In any case, maybe let's keep the insulting of Oilers to literally any other thread.

EDIT: Edwards became owner later than I remembered.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

No they didn't. Everyone knew Dube was involved when his agent said they would sue anyone who said any wrongdoing took place. You think it was a coincidence that the Senators didn't sign Formenton? It wasn't even an open secret, it was simply open.

It's the same ownership who jumped at the chance to get Gilmour when he was accused of raping his child's babysitter.

In any case, maybe let's keep the insulting of Oilers to literally any other thread.

EDIT: Edwards became owner later than I remembered.

The Senators gave Formenton a qualifying offer which he rejected, they didn't just cut him loose. He is actually suing his former agency right now for allegedly advising him to not accept the qualifying offer.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The Senators gave Formenton a qualifying offer which he rejected, they didn't just cut him loose. He is actually suing his former agency right now for allegedly advising him to not accept the qualifying offer.

You think they wouldn't have offered him more than his near league-minimum qualifying offer if he wasn't involved? 60 points and they let him go when he rejected the offer because they knew.

Just like the Flames did when Dube's agent was threatening a lawsuit to anyone who suggested there was wrongdoing, ostensibly telling the alleged victim to shut up.

"What happened to the victim was disgusting, I hope those responsible face serious reprcussions but I was not in the room"

vs

"Police investigated, anyone who says any wrongdoing took place will be sued"

Flames fans trying to figure out which one of those was involved:

[FlamesAddiction]

I didn't say anything about Dube or what the Flames knew or when they knew it. I was only pointing out that there was a price that the Sens were willing to bring back Formenton for. They didn't have to give him a qualifying offer if they thought he was implicated in this.

But go ahead, continue your zealous crusade.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I didn't say anything about Dube or what the Flames knew or when they knew it. I was only pointing out that there was a price that the Sens were willing to bring back Formenton for. They didn't have to give him a qualifying offer if they thought he was implicated in this.

But go ahead, continue your zealous crusade.

Sorry what? He was saying they cut ties with Dube when they found out. I'm telling you they knew long before. I had posts removed when I said Dube was involved in 2022. I knew, the Flames knew.

This isn't a crusade. It's the truth. The Oilers, the Flames, the Senators even if you want to go there, all don't give a #### as long as we're paying for a ticket. Why pretend otherwise?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Sorry what? He was saying they cut ties with Dube when they found out. I'm telling you they knew long before. I had posts removed when I said Dube was involved in 2022. I knew, the Flames knew.

This isn't a crusade. It's the truth. The Oilers, the Flames, the Senators even if you want to go there, all don't give a #### as long as we're paying for a ticket. Why pretend otherwise?

Why are you quoting me for something someone else said? I was just pointing out that the Sens were willing to keep Formenton in the fold and took the necessary actions to secure their rights to him. You suggested that they cut ties with him because they knew something.

I think it was obvious that Dube was a central figure after the comments from his agent. I also don't think it was a huge surprise to the Flames management and it was the primary reason why they phased out his ice time his last year. I don't think they knew when he signed his contract though. They probably believed him at the time, although I wish they didn't.

One thing is for sure, he won't be getting an invite back even if he is found not guilty. Not like the Oilers inviting Virtanen to training camp after being found not guilty.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Why are you quoting me for something someone else said? I was just pointing out that the Sens were willing to keep Formenton in the fold and took the necessary actions to secure their rights to him. You suggested that they cut ties with him because they knew something.

I never said they wouldn't keep him. I'm saying they let him walk because they knew he was involved in 2022. They would have offered him a lot more than league minimum if they thought he wasn't. But I'm not defending them. I'm just saying they knew, just like the Flames knew Dube was involved in 2022. That's my point. It was open who was involved. Seems you agree.

I mean, we can go through pretty much every team (look at Lemieux's Penguins and Quinn) and probably all of them have shown they don't give a #### as long as they think the fans will continue to pay for their tickets. At least St. Louis was willing to give Gilmour away, but I imagine they have their own skeletons. Maybe not.

But I mean with the Flames using the good-will they had accumulated with the Kylington situation by bringing up mental health for a player they knew was accused of rape was bull####. No better than what the Oilers will do. So again, my point is glass houses.

[OptimalTates]

I will also say as a previous Flames season ticket owner and lifetime fan (though waning admittedly if in part because of their mediocrity), calling them out for reprehensible behaviour shouldn't been seen as a "zealous crusade".

Pretending it's only our rivals who engage in inappropriate conduct, while ignoring our team's own, that's not going to change the problems with hockey culture. The Flames releasing the tweet about mental health knowing Dube was involved, and playing for the Flames, should be called out by "real" Flame fans as much as anyone.

Also ignoring teams and players, I'm honestly not sure I would agree that one is inherently worse:

• Having a player on the roster you know has been accused of rape
• Having a player on the roster who has been accused of rape but found not guilty

Again, in any other thread I'll thank someone for insulting the Oilers, but I disagree with this thread being one where we ignore the Flames own issues given the seriousness and the Oilers having nothing to do with it, while admittedly alluding to it as well.

[Jiri Hrdina]

He was already signed to a contract when the allegations came out. How do you expect them to cut ties with him?

[devo22]

Also, they immediately cut ties with Ronni once they could. I'm sure they'd have liked to handle the Dube thing more quickly as well, but it's not that easy.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He was already signed to a contract when the allegations came out. How do you expect them to cut ties with him?

Scratch him? At least not pretend he is away from the team for mental health reasons. Why shouldn't we expect that?

But this still goes to the person who said they cut ties with him when they found out. They didn't. They cut ties when they found out he was being charged. Huge difference. They knew he was accused when his lawyer was saying anyone suggesting there was wrongdoing would be sued. They didn't scratch him then. Let's not ignore facts.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Scratch him? At least not pretend he is away from the team for mental health reasons. Why shouldn't we expect that?

But this still goes to the person who said they cut ties with him when they found out. They didn't. They cut ties when they found out he was being charged. Huge difference. They knew he was accused when his lawyer was saying anyone suggesting there was wrongdoing would be sued. They didn't scratch him then. Let's not ignore facts.

To be fair there were other guys whose names were floating around who weren’t charged in the end. Should teams have sat them? Anyone at the bar? Anyone on that team?

[Jiri Hrdina]

There wasn’t a mechanism to cut ties with him. The PA would have disputed it.

[OptimalTates]

These were options available to the Flames:

1. File a grievance with the league that he has breached contract due to misconduct. Almost certainly results in a lawsuit, especially as it would have occurred before the contract was signed (although undisclosed). Fair enough, I don't really expect a business to do this but it was available to them.
   
2. Publicly announce that the Flames will scratch him until they do their own investigation that proves he was not involved - may open them up to a lawsuit given outcomes but I would respect them for it.
   
3. Simply scratch him without saying anything. They can do it for any reason. Just the #### up and have him as a healthy scratch like they did for Kylington. Let the NHLPA file a grievance that wouldn't go anywhere and make the NHLPA defend the accused rapist.
   
4. Play him until he steps away from the team, then simply release a statement saying he has taken a leave from the team and no further comment will be made.
   
5. Play him until he steps away from the team because he is about to be charged, then release a statement saying he is doing so for mental health reasons because you did the same with Kylington and made good-will.
   
6. Argue he should not be suspended by the league.

It's a problem that they took one of those bottom steps.

"It's a business what do you expect?" Okay, but then let's not claim any moral high ground.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

To be fair there were other guys whose names were floating around who weren’t charged in the end. Should teams have sat them? Anyone at the bar? Anyone on that team?

No. Because, I knew he was involved. The Flames knew he was involved. I'm saying this wasn't a secret. They knew like Ottawa knew Formenton was involved.

There could be a fair argument to be made for the likes of Gadjovich and Steele, but it wasn't a secret. The Senators knew Formenton was involved. The Flames knew Dube was involved. Dube's agent threatening to sue anyone who said wrongdoing should have been a big sign to the Flames fan who didn't have their head in the sand.

Again, I had posts removed in 2022. And I don't blame the mods when Dube's agent is threatening lawsuits, but this wasn't a secret. Tkflames said they cut ties when they found out. That's not true. It's not

[Jiri Hrdina]

There is a process for this stuff when someone is accused. The Flames followed that process, including likely in consultation with the league and their own lawyers.

If you really feel this way that why the hell do you continue to root for the team at all?

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

There is a process for this stuff when someone is accused. The Flames followed that process, including likely in consultation with the league and their own lawyers.

If you really feel this way that why the hell do you continue to root for the team at all?

What's the process? The same process when Kane was signed by the Oilers? I'm not saying the Flames broke league rules. I'm saying they are no better than the Oilers. There was nothing stopping the Flames from telling Dube he was scratched, as long as they paid him.

The same process that allowed the Flames to play Dube will be the same process that allows the Oilers to sign Hart, should it occur.

And yeah, good question.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

You seem to equivocating signing a player after an investigation and keeping a player already signed prior to the completion of an investigation. Posters are simply saying those are too different things.

If the oilers now sign Hart, and the Flames Formenton, then you would have a point.