Another school shooting.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Dion

Do you want to take the risk that they might kill someone?

Well of course I don't. I think that we basically agree on the subject that people like this need help and it's incumbent on society (students, teachers, coworkers what have you) to see that people get this help. All I am getting at is that it's very difficult to enforce such a psychological policy. The line between depressed and multiple homicide isn't always as clear as it seems. And you can't assume that everyone who needs help is a soon to be killer.

If the school wasn't going to push it any further then IMO they had an obligation to inform the students and parents of that students behaviour and anything they tried to do. Give the parents and students the option of deciding what to do for themselves.

Couldn't disagree more. How will that help anyone? You want to take someone who feels already they are ostracize by society and confirm their beliefs. Why take someone who is already depressed, angry and disturbed and make them more of the above? That will just push them further into recluse and drive them to take more actions such as this. It's not like people in these situations are convicted paedophiles who are getting out of jail and moving into your community. I agree they need help, but this is not the answer.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its funny, because we keep looking at the bullying aspect of things as the identifiable reason why this kid did what he did. And I'm not trying to minimalize things here, but I'm sure that since the dawn of time, there have been millions or 10's of millions of people bullied, and some out right viciously, and yet we've had, what 20 shootings of this type and magnitude since the late 70's, and not a lot before that.

But how many people are killed by victims of bullying every year? Just because kids who get bullied don't all go out and shoot 10+ people, doesn't mean there are more bullying related killings in the world. It just means that they aren't of this magnitude. Not to say you're wrong, but if even one person is killed because they bullied someone, isn't that one too many?

The entire magnitude of society has changed... everything needs to be bigger and better than the last model. Why should killings be any different? (That sounds really callous, and it's not meant to be, I'm just also hypothesizing about why these events are getting larger and larger.)

[CaptainCrunch]

If his teacher approached him and suggested that he needed counciling, which one of his profs did, and he refused, then whats the next step. You have to respect someone's privacy and his refusal to seek help, and until an actual crime is committed you can't boot him out of school.

I mean if we started booting people out of school for violent or demented homework submissions, then people like Berke Breathed, Jim Morrison, and a lot of others would have been tossed from school after thier first day.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Well of course I don't. I think that we basically agree on the subject that people like this need help and it's incumbent on society (students, teachers, coworkers what have you) to see that people get this help. All I am getting at is that it's very difficult to enforce such a psychological policy. The line between depressed and multiple homicide isn't always as clear as it seems. And you can't assume that everyone who needs help is a soon to be killer.

Agreed, though regardless of the side of the line they're on, we should still be helping them. Perhaps this will help governments decide that mental health care needs to be included in health care benifits as well? Beyond that, as was stated before, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. So then what? Do you lock up everyone who seems clinically depressed? As you've said, you can't enforce that.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Do people actually get bullied at University? In my 5 years in Uni, I have never once seen anything I could consider bullying.
And for the most part by this age, people are pretty free to be whomever they want to be. I don't see many clicks or "cool groups" around the Uni picking on other kids because of how they're dressed.

Bullying is a very serious issue, but in this case I don't think I'm willing to give him that excuse.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FireFly

But how many people are killed by victims of bullying every year? Just because kids who get bullied don't all go out and shoot 10+ people, doesn't mean there are more bullying related killings in the world. It just means that they aren't of this magnitude. Not to say you're wrong, but if even one person is killed because they bullied someone, isn't that one too many?

Granted we don't know and well never know, however I keep going back to the fact that I think that blaming this on bullying is over simplifying things. Those of us who went to school in the 70's and 80's know that schools, and hockey teams, and military units were bully institutions. We had hazings, and frosh weeks and initiations. We've all had the instance where we're worried about what the bigger kid is going to do, or why that gang of seniors is always kicking the crap out of me. But that dosen't make us serial killers, except in (and again I'm not trying to minimalize things) the fairly rare based on numbers cases where someone goes ballistics. I think we're doing a dis-service to the victims of these events by giving reason to these killers that this simple. He was bullied, he was backed into the corner so he needed to kill 10 or 20 or 30 people that he didn't even know. Or he was dumped by his girlfriend or he was fired from his job. The concept of thrill killing, and thats what this was, or mass murder followed by suicide is a relatively new concept in the grand scheme of things. Is it societies glorification of violence, is it the competitive spirit that drives someone to break a murder record, is it sexual abuse, is it a person that hasn't been integrated into society. Hell is it the change in the chemicals that we put into food, is it a shift in the chemical composition of our atmosphere that effects 1 out of 10 million people? We don't know, but we're doing a real diservice by nodding out heads thoughtfully and accepting that its simply a factor of bullying?

If you'll remember, up until the Ted Bundy trial, they always talked about the rareity of catching a serial killer alive, it just didn't happen all of that often. But now thier finding commenalities in thier symptom's ie cruelty to animals, a sexual dysfunction, a enormous IQ.

Things will continue to evolve as long as we continue to faill to ask why, and go beyond its video games, or violent movies, or bullying. [/auote]

Originally Posted by FireFly

The entire magnitude of society has changed... everything needs to be bigger and better than the last model. Why should killings be any different? (That sounds really callous, and it's not meant to be, I'm just also hypothesizing about why these events are getting larger and larger.)

Again, I think this is to simple, sure the magnitude of society has changed, but that dosen't truly explain these events, its more then that. Sure society is based around bigger and better, and that goes from how information gets out, to the competitiveness that causes a athlete to use steroids to be a bigger winner. But the permissiveness of society, and the acceptance of violence, and violent crime has also shifted hard since the hippy generation.


Again just spitballing.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think we're making a large assumption about the sexual abuse thing. The whole backed into a corner thing could refer to his girlfriend breaking up with him, and not being able to handle it.

FYI he didn't have a girlfriend. Well, he apparently had an imaginary one named Jelly, but that initial stuff about a gf wasn't true.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

FYI he didn't have a girlfriend. Well, he apparently had an imaginary one named Jelly, but that initial stuff about a gf wasn't true.

Stand corrected.

[Ayrahb]

Something that is beginning to bother me is the willingness of S. Koreans to take responsibility for this individual's actions. Media report that Koreans in the US are being told to fast for repentance by the Korean ambassador, while the S. Korean government is holding emergency meetings on the "issue".

A Korean co-worker of mine just told me that she was warned not to travel to the US and to say to everyone that she is Chinese.

What a load of crap!

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

FYI he didn't have a girlfriend. Well, he apparently had an imaginary one named Jelly, but that initial stuff about a gf wasn't true.

Actually I am pretty sure her name was Pauline Raisin.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Do people actually get bullied at University? In my 5 years in Uni, I have never once seen anything I could consider bullying.
And for the most part by this age, people are pretty free to be whomever they want to be. I don't see many clicks or "cool groups" around the Uni picking on other kids because of how they're dressed.

Bullying is a very serious issue, but in this case I don't think I'm willing to give him that excuse.

I've seen it.

Not the "push him over and stand over top of him" playground bullying. More the "he doesn't fit in and let's make snide remarks" type of thing. Everyone has the odd run-in, but some people seem to end up in that position habitually.

A strong person can deal with it, but not everyone is strong.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I've seen it.

Not the "push him over and stand over top of him" playground bullying. More the "he doesn't fit in and let's make snide remarks" type of thing. Everyone has the odd run-in, but some people seem to end up in that position habitually.

A strong person can deal with it, but not everyone is strong.

Quite true. I've seen many incidences where that was the case, including cliquey groups or clubs in certain faculties that I won't name. In these instances, people are encouraged to join when the groups are out in public promoting their clubs and their causes, but in reality their social circles are rarely inclusive, and leads to resentment between members, if they are even considered a 'member' at all.

So yes, there is bullying in universities, but of a different nature.

[Mango]

A few diary entries from the victims. The one by Clay Violand is particularly shocking and heartbreaking:

http://www.people.com/people/article...035637,00.html

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

Something that is beginning to bother me is the willingness of S. Koreans to take responsibility for this individual's actions. Media report that Koreans in the US are being told to fast for repentance by the Korean ambassador, while the S. Korean government is holding emergency meetings on the "issue".

A Korean co-worker of mine just told me that she was warned not to travel to the US and to say to everyone that she is Chinese.

What a load of crap!

This could be partly due to the upbringing of these people in their (Asian) culture which is very collectivist, emphasizing the "group" and thinking in terms of "us". It's very common in collectivist cultures (China, Korea, Asia in general) to view actions by an individual closely related to themselves (i.e. considered as part of the in-group, someone they can readily identify with (mostly, common ethnicity)) to absorb that individual's wrongdoings when they occur.

Obviously, this contrasts with more individualistic societies like the West, where there are clear and definite distinctions made between individuals since people are identified by who they are as an individual, rather than who they are associated with.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Do people actually get bullied at University?.

As Bobble notes, bullying does happen in university. It happens in elementary, in jr high, high school, university/college, the workplace, fun sports leagues, retirement homes, etc. Not saying its happening everywhere you look at everytime, but bullying is fairly common I believe. In all facets of life.

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I've seen it.

Not the "push him over and stand over top of him" playground bullying. More the "he doesn't fit in and let's make snide remarks" type of thing. Everyone has the odd run-in, but some people seem to end up in that position habitually.

A strong person can deal with it, but not everyone is strong.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Mango

A few diary entries from the victims. The one by Clay Violand is particularly shocking and heartbreaking:

http://www.people.com/people/article...035637,00.html

You're right about that. It must have been truly horrifying to have to lay there and hear your classmates get shot at. Coming back and shooting them again showed how much of a coward that was.

The sounds of all of the people who got killed will probably never leave him. It must have been horrible to be those kids, not only to get shot, but to get shot and feel you'll survive only to have him come back and shoot you some more.

I can't get it out of my mind how sick that ****er was.

[transplant99]

Another survivors harrowing recollection of what happened...and this one was shot 3 different times.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18183450/site/newsweek/

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Another survivors harrowing recollection of what happened...and this one was shot 3 different times.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18183450/site/newsweek/

[Among the casualties: Goddard's teacher, Madame Couture-Nowak.]

Couture-Nowak's loss is hitting quite hard here in the Maritimes, as she lived and taught here during the mid-1990s I believe. Quite proud of her Acadian (I believe) background, and actually suceeded in getting a french school built in one of the towns here.

[renny]

What's upsetting is there are some with anti-S. Korean sentiments. I was listening to Jim Rome, and a caller called in expressing these exact sentiments. The caller went as far as saying, "It's all the immigrants' fault, they come and fly planes into our buildings, and go around killing people, we should stop all immigrants form entering our country."

It really disgusts me that people are thinking this way. Firstly, it's not an immigrant or race thing. It's a mentally deranged thing, the guy was obviously unstable and needed a lot of help and wasn't strong enough to overcome the issues plaguing him. Secondly, Cho lived in America longer than he lived in South Korea, the only reason why he was a South Korean resident was because he kept his citizenship status, he's more American than anything. Thirdly, let's not forget, the Columbine shootings were perpetrated by 2 Caucasian AMERICANS.

[SeeGeeWhy]

I blame the loose entrance standards of Virgina Tech's English department. Has anyone read his plays? They are so crappy it is unbelievable.