PROOF that Evolution is a Myth

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by AnthonyCook

I'm actually quite surprised by the number of people who don't accept Evolution as fact nowadays.

I can understand accepting it while encorporating it into one's religious beliefs... but the idea that people still flat out deny it really boggles my mind.

I believe in god and I don't see any problem with accepting evolution.

The problem is Christians have a religion based on miracles, thanks to Paul, and the belief that the earth was made in 7 days about 5000 years ago. Any proof discrediting any of these ideas throws Christianity into the waste basket. So they will fight these ideas, no matter what logic says and they can't incorporate evolution into their religion.

The same problem rears it's ugly head when people claim they found the burial crypt of Jesus. If it was proven it would show that Jesus' body did not ascend to heaven, sending Christians to purgatory. The other side of the coin is it would prove Christ lived, sending atheists to god knows where. Good fun.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The other side of the coin is it would prove Christ lived, sending atheists to god knows where. Good fun.

Proving that he was actually alive isn't really the issue.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The other side of the coin is it would prove Christ lived, sending atheists to god knows where. Good fun.

That would prove a man named Jesus lived.... doesn't prove he was the son of god or that he had magic powers.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by AnthonyCook

That would prove a man named Jesus lived.... doesn't prove he was the son of god or that he had magic powers.

Of course, but haven't you heard Cheese and other atheists claim that there is no proof that Jesus or Christ ever lived and this seems to be a basic atheist belief. So if this is the man who was the leader of this sect and was crucified, the atheists have a problem.

To me whether or not Jesus had magic powers is irrevelent and actually takes people away from his teachings.

As far as being the son of god, that's another two sided coin. Being the son of god in my way of thinking is pretty much universal, it's only a matter of degree in being close to that part of you or me. In the church's way of thinking it differentiates and seperates us from Jesus and becomes a power ploy where they represent Jesus or god. I like to think of Jesus or any prophet as son's of men and so their understanding as something that I can attain.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Proving that he was actually alive isn't really the issue.

It isn't for most but it is for Cheese and his ilk.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It isn't for most but it is for Cheese and his ilk.

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I think you are wrong on this one. The non-belief in god doesn't hinge on the existence of this person named Jesus.

[PsYcNeT]

To summarize:

Until Creationist 'scientists' follow scientific protocol, they are not performing science.

The fundamental flaw with Creationist science, is that they feel they have the answer, so the rest of the scientific theory is spent attempting to prove existing theory wrong, rather than finding a better theory.

If they already believe they are right, why do they have to push the agenda?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I think you are wrong on this one. The non-belief in god doesn't hinge on the existence of this person named Jesus.

I agree, the existence or not of Jesus shouldn't have much to do with an atheist's belief but it appears to be something that many trot out when they demand proof of god.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I agree, the existence or not of Jesus shouldn't have much to do with an atheist's belief but it appears to be something that many trot out when they demand proof of god.

I'm with Rouge on this one. I've never heard an atheist say that Jesus didn't exist as a basis for their atheism. I am not a religious person, in fact I'm quite the opposite, and I believe that there is very high likelyhood Jesus as a person existed. But I believe that he was just a person and the tales of his conception, birth, miracles, rising from the dead and so on, are merely fantasy.

[Cowperson]

[quote=Vulcan;831904]Of course, but haven't you heard Cheese and other atheists claim that there is no proof that Jesus or Christ ever lived and this seems to be a basic atheist belief. So if this is the man who was the leader of this sect and was crucified, the atheists have a problem.

To me whether or not Jesus had magic powers is irrevelent and actually takes people away from his teachings.

quote]

I'm agnostic . . . . . I've simply asked people here to solve the riddle and prove that he existed and, of course, they can't.

I'll also acknowledge that I can't prove that a person DIDN'T exist 2000 years ago . . . . so I hold out the possibility that he might have existed while simultaneously observing there isn't a shred of evidence directly from the contemporary life of Jesus to prove he is anything more than a myth.

Since we're talking about miracles though, by coincidence in the NY Times this morning, we have comments from Egypt's Chief Archeologist who says the Parting of The Red Sea by Moses "is a myth."

But archaeologists who have worked here have never turned up evidence to support the account in the Bible, and there is only one archaeological find that even suggests the Jews were ever in Egypt. Books have been written on the topic, but the discussion has, for the most part, remained low-key as the empirically minded have tried not to incite the spiritually minded.

“Sometimes as archaeologists we have to say that never happened because there is no historical evidence,” Dr. Hawass said, as he led the journalists across a rutted field of stiff and rocky sand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/wo.../03exodus.html

Cowperson

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I'm with Rouge on this one. I've never heard an atheist say that Jesus didn't exist as a basis for their atheism. I am not a religious person, in fact I'm quite the opposite, and I believe that there is very high likelyhood Jesus as a person existed. But I believe that he was just a person and the tales of his conception, birth, miracles, rising from the dead and so on, are merely fantasy.

Did you miss this thread where it seemed quite important to both sides on whether Jesus existed or not.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...ht=Jesus+lived


I'm not saying either way, as it doesn't impact on my experience, but if Jesus' bones were found, it would be good fun that neither Christians or atheists would like.

[photon]

An atheist or agnostic doesn't have a vested interest in Jesus existing or not, they (most are anyway) are open to any new data or evidence on the topic.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by photon

An atheist or agnostic doesn't have a vested interest in Jesus existing or not, they (most are anyway) are open to any new data or evidence on the topic.

Exactly. Whether or not Jesus existed or not doesn't really matter, because proving it at this point in time it not possible.

[photon]

Or if compelling evidence came up that proved not only a historical Jesus but in his divinity, most Atheists would willingly change their world view.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by photon

An atheist or agnostic doesn't have a vested interest in Jesus existing or not, they (most are anyway) are open to any new data or evidence on the topic.

That is how it should be.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by photon

Or if compelling evidence came up that proved not only a historical Jesus but in his divinity, most Atheists would willingly change their world view.

That's the difference between atheists and me. Atheists and others look for god out in the world, I look for it inside.

[photon]

I don't know if that's true of all non-believers... Many look inside and just haven't found anything. After all the emotion is taken away, after all the ritual, all the group psychology, all the gentle mass hypnosis (not intential mind you, just a "this type of service causes this kind of reaction" kind of thing), all the social and community factors, many find that there's nothing left, that they don't hear any still small voice inside.

If God took an active role in the world (ie influenced the outcome of events and decisions outside their natural un-influenced results) then it would be detectable. If God regrew arms, there would be videos of arms being regrown. If God healed, studies could clearly show it. But when an atheist or agnostic looks for these things, they don't find them.

So they look inside for that still small voice, and are still waiting.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't know if that's true of all non-believers... Many look inside and just haven't found anything. After all the emotion is taken away, after all the ritual, all the group psychology, all the gentle mass hypnosis (not intential mind you, just a "this type of service causes this kind of reaction" kind of thing), all the social and community factors, many find that there's nothing left, that they don't hear any still small voice inside.

If God took an active role in the world (ie influenced the outcome of events and decisions outside their natural un-influenced results) then it would be detectable. If God regrew arms, there would be videos of arms being regrown. If God healed, studies could clearly show it. But when an atheist or agnostic looks for these things, they don't find them.

So they look inside for that still small voice, and are still waiting.

Yeah, I was painting non-believers with too broad a brush and you are right I have to remove my emotions, attachments and desires to enter. If I can do this, it doesn't matter if I'm a saint or a sinner, black or white, male or female, gay or straight, etc., it just is. For me entering that place is a matter of being quiet so my awareness is heightened and the magic can begin. How to become quiet and where to look is the dilemma, find it on your own or ask. I had to ask someone.

It's a shame when religion focuses on miracles and debunking evolution when they could focus on Jesus' teachings [and others] such as 'The kingdom of heaven is within you.'

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by photon

If God took an active role in the world (ie influenced the outcome of events and decisions outside their natural un-influenced results) then it would be detectable. If God regrew arms, there would be videos of arms being regrown. If God healed, studies could clearly show it. But when an atheist or agnostic looks for these things, they don't find them.

i'll provide the "woah...pass the bong" answer again. maybe god does influence events but does it in a way that looks natural.

[photon]

But if it was natural or even appears natural then it's not influence at all. That's like saying when a book falls off a table and hits the floor that it did so under God's influence instead of gravity, and then trying to argue which influenced the event, God or Gravity, with no way of possibly knowing which it was. The discussion has no merit.

Religion doesn't claim that God influences events in a natural way, it claims that God directly intervenes in a very unnatural or supernatural (and therefore provable) way.