What “save the season” trade would you like?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Absolutely ... but when the core has gone through a few coaches that can't seem to push the buttons you have to start wondering if the button is stuck or not working right?

Maybe. But sometimes it might be because you keep buying cheap knockoff buttons instead of paying for quality.

Former Flame coaches don’t get head jobs elsewhere. That has to mean a little something.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If you don't like tactics then you get rid of the coach.



My issue though is the tactics weren't changed and or not adjusted to so much as the team went into a mental spin where they played on their heels. Nobody coaches that.



I think it's a core player mental toughness issue that has to be resolved in the off season more than a coaching problem.

Is this true though? I'd argue that if you look at truly successful coaches over the past number of years, they're much much more than just just good at tactics or line setters. A good coach has the pulse of the team, gets players to buy in, helps players grow etc. Unless you have a Crosby or Ovechkin on your team, the coach is also the leader of the team.

Strong leadership is important. Some people have it, some people don't. It was obvious Gully didn't have it from day one. It was just as obvious that Sutter and Keenan had it from day one. With Peters, the jury is out.

I'm a huge fan of Tre. But I blame Tre on this one. He knew the team was mentally weak and fragile well before Gully was axed. That made the importance of getting a great psychology coach even more important. He could have had the boat. He went with the mystery box. And now the team is paying the price. Because now its starting to seem like when the road gets rocky, whether in the playoffs or regular season, Peters doesn't have the answers.

You know Darryl wouldn't let a six game slide like this happen. You just can't play this way when you play for Darryl.

[VladtheImpaler]

I am still open to the return of Mike Keenan.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Probably because it was a headshot. And before you even say it wasn't Mangipane had his nose broken on the hit.

The hit was very sudden, there was no chance the head was targetted. The League didn't even look at it. It was a beauty.

[JohnnyB]

Yeah, I'm confident that if the Flames had Tortorella behind the bench against the Avs, it would have been a very different series. Peters seemed to add zero value in that series.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Absolutely ... but when the core has gone through a few coaches that can't seem to push the buttons you have to start wondering if the button is stuck or not working right?

Well Stanley Cup champion Bob Hartley did get this team to the 2nd round and then had to endure a year of horrific goaltending. Flames fired him and hired a guy who had never had success anywhere before. They fired him and hired a coach who had never had success anywhere before. If they get a new coach I would suggest hiring someone who was successful somewhere before.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well Stanley Cup champion Bob Hartley did get this team to the 2nd round and then had to endure a year of horrific goaltending. Flames fired him and hired a guy who had never had success anywhere before. They fired him and hired a coach who had never had success anywhere before. If they get a new coach I would suggest hiring someone who was successful somewhere before.

I was initially not a fan of the Hartley firing and the Peters hiring, but felt that I couldn't argue with results when the Flames were looking so strong last year. In the playoffs against the Avs I lost confidence in Peters again though. He just did nothing to adapt. He doesn't seem like a guy that can positively manipulate the emotions of the team or engage in gamesmanship for the sake of getting the team closer to winning. When the team faltered, he didn't seem to be there to have their back with clever adjustments. That, in my eyes, was very poor leadership from the coach.

[Bingo]

There are times when I see a coach exploited and have no adjustment ... I thought Hartley struggled after the league came up with an answer to his stretch pass for example.

The Flames didn't change tactics in the playoffs though. They gave up on them. Nobody coaches a team to back in on their goaltender and expose the team by creating huge gaps between forwards and defenseman.

That's a team that is spooked, and now leaving the game plan to avoid looking foolish.

To me that's not coaching.

However if you think it's Peters job to get them going again ... get them out of the spook and back to the game plan, you could be on to something.

But then you're back to the issue of the team needing the coach to drive them again, just like they did with Gulutzan ... which sends the topic back to needing to change the core/leadership.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There are times when I see a coach exploited and have no adjustment ... I thought Hartley struggled after the league came up with an answer to his stretch pass for example.

The Flames didn't change tactics in the playoffs though. They gave up on them. Nobody coaches a team to back in on their goaltender and expose the team by creating huge gaps between forwards and defenseman.

That's a team that is spooked, and now leaving the game plan to avoid looking foolish.

To me that's not coaching.

However if you think it's Peters job to get them going again ... get them out of the spook and back to the game plan, you could be on to something.

But then you're back to the issue of the team needing the coach to drive them again, just like they did with Gulutzan ... which sends the topic back to needing to change the core/leadership.

So I mean, okay, but... Peters had all summer to cook up a new game plan, and absolutely no one here or anywhere else can identify it, has seen a sniff of it, and the Flames got absolutely smacked by the Avs in game 1, as though no time had passed. He clearly didn't offer a solution that the players could avail themselves of.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

So I mean, okay, but... Peters had all summer to cook up a new game plan, and absolutely no one here or anywhere else can identify it, has seen a sniff of it, and the Flames got absolutely smacked by the Avs in game 1, as though no time had passed. He clearly didn't offer a solution that the players could avail themselves of.

At the same point though, Treliving had all summer to address the holes in the roster and failed to do that. He tried, he failed.

Coaches generally don’t change systems, and they definitely don’t after 50 win seasons. How the coach would view it is that the team executed his system for 50 wins, and didn’t execute it properly in the other games - so he has to work harder to get the team to execute it properly more often. I doubt Peters went into the summer believing he had failed from a systems perspective. It’s also why we still have the absolute joke of a PP strategy, the players just didn’t execute it properly.

Now, if you want to question whether his system is junk or not, that’s fair - although, again - it worked for 50 wins.

When Tree came out and said he’s been horse%#^*, he actually has been horse%#^*. This teams issues are more related to roster construction than anything else in my eyes. Too many holes in the roster that required too many players to play above a sustainable level for it to work long term. The fact that we came back with the same flawed roster is on Tree and Tree alone.

The solution is hard though, because one doesn’t simply find top end centres or top end scoring wingers. Especially in a market like Calgary, where you generally have to draft them to get them during the prime years...and I think that’s my biggest point of criticism with Tree. He rushed things. The Hamonic trade, the wasted assets on the likes of Elliott and Lazar...it all adds up, and the end state of this roster is that it is structurally flawed, and on top of that organizational depth is extremely lacking.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

At the same point though, Treliving had all summer to address the holes in the roster and failed to do that. He tried, he failed.

Coaches generally don’t change systems, and they definitely don’t after 50 win seasons. How the coach would view it is that the team executed his system for 50 wins, and didn’t execute it properly in the other games - so he has to work harder to get the team to execute it properly more often. I doubt Peters went into the summer believing he had failed from a systems perspective. It’s also why we still have the absolute joke of a PP strategy, the players just didn’t execute it properly.

Now, if you want to question whether his system is junk or not, that’s fair - although, again - it worked for 50 wins.

When Tree came out and said he’s been horse%#^*, he actually has been horse%#^*. This teams issues are more related to roster construction than anything else in my eyes. Too many holes in the roster that required too many players to play above a sustainable level for it to work long term. The fact that we came back with the same flawed roster is on Tree and Tree alone.

The solution is hard though, because one doesn’t simply find top end centres or top end scoring wingers. Especially in a market like Calgary, where you generally have to draft them to get them during the prime years...and I think that’s my biggest point of criticism with Tree. He rushed things. The Hamonic trade, the wasted assets on the likes of Elliott and Lazar...it all adds up, and the end state of this roster is that it is structurally flawed, and on top of that organizational depth is extremely lacking.

Spot on. The solution is much harder than just a coaching change because we currently have an underperforming roster over a large sample size in an organization that has a very bare prospect pool combined with being in cap hell. And probably the biggest cause of that was trying to rush things. This very clearly comes back to the man who got us here.

Treliving was way premature when he signed Brouwer and then made the Hamonic trade. And then instead of learning from the Brouwer failure (in the very same offseason he had to buy him out even!) he doubled down by signing another ‘gamer vet’ for too much for way too long in Neal. And he’s hardly taken any heat for it, he got an extension! The man should have been fired by now.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Spot on. The solution is much harder than just a coaching change because we currently have an underperforming roster over a very large sample size in an organization that has a very bare prospect pool combined with being in cap hell. And probably the biggest cause of that was trying to rush things. This very clearly comes back to the man who got us here.

Treliving was way premature when he signed Brouwer and then made the Hamonic trade. And then instead of learning from the Brouwer failure (in the very same offseason he had to buy him out even!) he doubled down by signing another ‘gamer vet’ for too much for way too long in Neal. And he’s hardly taken any heat for it, he got an extension! The man should have been fired by now.

I’m not in agreement on the firing aspect of it. I think Tree is a good GM, but definitely not perfect - but who is? . I think in the early years he was pressured by management one way or the other, and that had an impact. I think the man is on one hell of a cold streak though that he needs to snap out of and moving forward he needs to be careful to ensure he doesn’t fall in love with his own players.

Consistently firing management puts the organization in a constant state of chaos with no path forward.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I’m not in agreement on the firing aspect of it. I think Tree is a good GM, but definitely not perfect - but who is? . I think in the early years he was pressured by management one way or the other, and that had an impact. I think the man is on one hell of a cold streak though that he needs to snap out of and moving forward he needs to be careful to ensure he doesn’t fall in love with his own players.

Consistently firing management puts the organization in a constant state of chaos with no path forward.

Just gonna have to agree to disagree there. Continuity is great, if you have the right people in the right positions. I don’t feel Tre, and especially a lot of the guys above him like Ken King, are the right people for a good organization. I did like Tre earlier on but watching him make the same mistake over and over and then doubling down has made me very sour. And his management of draft assets has put the future of this team in jeopardy imo. As it stands now we are looking at the end of this rebuild and it doesn’t look good. If he was pressured from above to hurry it then those guys should be gone as well. I feel this whole organization needs a thorough cleansing.

[bubbsy]

Flames management better be smart and work backwards from the new arena time frame. A flames team that sucks or is early in another rebuild just when fans are asked to start paying the premium of the new arena is going to hurt them quite a bit.

If they are smart they have to be willing to risk starting the rebuild too soon rather than starting late.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There are times when I see a coach exploited and have no adjustment ... I thought Hartley struggled after the league came up with an answer to his stretch pass for example.

The Flames didn't change tactics in the playoffs though. They gave up on them. Nobody coaches a team to back in on their goaltender and expose the team by creating huge gaps between forwards and defenseman.

That's a team that is spooked, and now leaving the game plan to avoid looking foolish.

To me that's not coaching.

However if you think it's Peters job to get them going again ... get them out of the spook and back to the game plan, you could be on to something.

But then you're back to the issue of the team needing the coach to drive them again, just like they did with Gulutzan ... which sends the topic back to needing to change the core/leadership.

That is pretty much what I feel, that the emotions of the team are part of what a coach should be able to manage and manipulate and he didn't seem to help the team with that challenge when they needed it.

I would even say that the main part of a coach's work should be in that space. The technical parts of the job are necessary to providing a team with great leadership and support, but they're not sufficient. The emotional work is key.

A team needing a coach to help get them to their next level through emotional management isn't necessarily a condemnation of the players either. Team performance and coach performance can't be considered in isolation. The team achieving the best it can assumes the coaching staff contributing all that they can. The coaching staff is part of the team.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Just gonna have to agree to disagree there. Continuity is great, if you have the right people in the right positions. I don’t feel Tre, and especially a lot of the guys above him like Ken King, are the right people for a good organization. I did like Tre earlier on but watching him make the same mistake over and over and then doubling down has made me very sour. And his management of draft assets has put the future of this team in jeopardy imo. As it stands now we are looking at the end of this rebuild and it doesn’t look good. If he was pressured from above to hurry it then those guys should be gone as well. I feel this whole organization needs a thorough cleansing.

I disagree with this take for the most part. Treliving is taking heat from you for adding players using cap space and no other asset and he is taking heat from you for moving futures in trades.

What is he supposed to do. Just draft players and hope enough pan out to build a team? Had we done that we could be staring down missing the playoffs every year with the exception of 2015.

Top free agents don’t want to come to Calgary. I agree with those that think the Hamonic trade was a bad move but getting a top 4 D making less than $4M for 3 years that wanted to be in Western Canada made sense. Brouwer had a big playoff and wanted to be here. He was a right shot with size and fit a need at the time. When he signed Neal the team looked like they needed another top 6 forward and while that appeared to not be the case last year it sure does this year.


The team was starting from scratch when he was hired. They had one top 6 pick then another 4th overall with a very high end prospect in Gaudreau. He has build a playoff team 3 of the 5 years he has been GM this organization has made the playoffs 5 of the previous 17 years. The team has drafted better under him and he has won some pretty big trades as well. I like that he has the guts to make big trades and while not everything can be a hit I think he has done better than you are giving him credit for

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I disagree with this take for the most part. Treliving is taking heat from you for adding players using cap space and no other asset and he is taking heat from you for moving futures in trades.

What is he supposed to do. Just draft players and hope enough pan out to build a team? Had we done that we could be staring down missing the playoffs every year with the exception of 2015.

Top free agents don’t want to come to Calgary. I agree with those that think the Hamonic trade was a bad move but getting a top 4 D making less than $4M for 3 years that wanted to be in Western Canada made sense. Brouwer had a big playoff and wanted to be here. He was a right shot with size and fit a need at the time. When he signed Neal the team looked like they needed another top 6 forward and while that appeared to not be the case last year it sure does this year.


The team was starting from scratch when he was hired. They had one top 6 pick then another 4th overall with a very high end prospect in Gaudreau. He has build a playoff team 3 of the 5 years he has been GM this organization has made the playoffs 5 of the previous 17 years. The team has drafted better under him and he has won some pretty big trades as well. I like that he has the guts to make big trades and while not everything can be a hit I think he has done better than you are giving him credit for

I want him to not waste very valuable cap space on Troy Brouwer and James Neal, ya absolutely. And throw Stone in there as well. And don’t waste picks on players like Lazar and Elliot. He deserves heavy criticism for all these moves. Hamonic trade was bad, and I absolutely do not agree with your assessment that it ‘made sense’ at the time, the trade was highly divisive and a large number of analysts pointed out that it was a ton to pay for a player that was coming off consecutive poor seasons. He has wasted an inordinate amount of draft picks in bad trades and nearly every free agent signing he has made has been an abject failure. The initial Dougie Hamilton trade has bought him a ton of good will but he has wasted that away in my opinion. Lotta people love the second Hamilton trade but to me it is so so at best, didn’t really waste good Will imo but didn’t gain any in my estimation. And I won’t bring up his latest trade but woof.

And ya, build through the draft. That’s how most good organizations build. Prudent free agent signings are fine, not too much cap at not too long of term is fine. Patience was key and he got way too impatient and here we are.

Finally found a goaltender but up until now every move he had made there had been terrible, wasting valuable assets along the way. His coaching hires look bad. I just fail to see what he is so good at.

Also what is this ‘start from scratch’ bs? If memory serves me correct he was handed Monahan, Gaudreau, Giordano, Backlund and Brodie as major pieces. Sorry but that is not starting from scratch, those were all valuable assets. Along with the 4th overall pick, a draft that we can now look back upon as a total failure. And I’m not just talking about Bennett, that whole draft was brutal. All the aforementioned assets still make up the majority of the key pieces of this team. He absolutely did not start with nothing. Total bs.

[Vinny01]

The Flames got absolutely nothing for Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regehr, or Kiprusoff. Gio and Brodie were coming into their own when he took over and yes Monahan and Gaudreau were excellent pieces.

I agree he should be blamed for the free agent signings. Having said that the lesson is to not sign free agents. Calgary is a place you have to overpay to get players to come here.

I think I understand what you would prefer which is the Chevy approach. Basically be extremely patient with drafting and make the occasional trade and hope you hit on the 5 top 10 picks in 7 years and see if that builds a winner. I can respect that patient approach but I would hate to wait that long to see a window last 1-2 years.


I like that Treliving has been aggressive with his team building but can admit there have been a few mistakes along the way. I am personally a massive fan of both Hamilton trades and if this season ends poorly I would be okay with him in charge of moving a couple of core pieces.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Flames got absolutely nothing for Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regehr, or Kiprusoff. Gio and Brodie were coming into their own when he took over and yes Monahan and Gaudreau were excellent pieces.

I agree he should be blamed for the free agent signings. Having said that the lesson is to not sign free agents. Calgary is a place you have to overpay to get players to come here.

I think I understand what you would prefer which is the Chevy approach. Basically be extremely patient with drafting and make the occasional trade and hope you hit on the 5 top 10 picks in 7 years and see if that builds a winner. I can respect that patient approach but I would hate to wait that long to see a window last 1-2 years.


I like that Treliving has been aggressive with his team building but can admit there have been a few mistakes along the way. I am personally a massive fan of both Hamilton trades and if this season ends poorly I would be okay with him in charge of moving a couple of core pieces.

I would say for the most part I would prefer that approach with the caveat that I am totally fine with big and bold trades. But if they don’t turn out, you have to pay the piper. I don’t like it when a move that looks bad in hindsight gets explained away as ‘well at the time it didn’t seem bad’. It’s a results based business, and when you’re paid millions you get to pay the consequences for your mistakes.

Going back to the continuity thing, I think I already mentioned in this thread but my main sport is NFL and the Baltimore Ravens. John Harbaugh has been our coach for 11 years, Ozzie Newsome was general manager from the inception of the franchise in 1996 until just last year when his handpicked successor took over. I get and believe in continuity. But these guys are the among the best in their profession and their results are indicative of that. We don’t have much for results from Treliving to say that the team needs to keep him simply for the sake of continuity, the team and the prospects for improvement look bad right now. And we most definitely do not have the results that say that we should keep the people above him. I would say my biggest gripe with this organization is the constant state of mediocrity. It’s not just a few years of it, we’re going on 30 now. This fan base deserves better.

Bengals of the NHL, as I say.

[Vinny01]

I get that it has been an extremely rough 30 years but in Treliving’s 5 we have had our only other series victory since 2004 and 1989 as well as the best regular season in 30 years. Maybe it is because Feaster and Sutter were so bad (I became a hardcore fan in 2004) I have a lot more rope for Treliving. He traded 3 draft picks for a top young Dman and then still pulled 3 NHL players out of the same draft.

I am a fan of the contracts he got for Brodie, Giordano, Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamilton, Lindholm, Hanifin

There are some errors but in the last 15 years this team has by far the most drafted players, along with an impressive young stable of Dmen and some very talented forwards. He certainly is not perfect but I am still a believer that he should be steering the ship.