2 year old boy snatched by alligator at Disney World

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

My statement has to do be people thinking that if you don't have kids your opinion on certain situations doesn't hold as much value, this only holds true in mental situations. If someone loses a child you might say you don't have kids you don't know what that feels like and that may be true but you don't need to have kids to know what its like to try and control a kid, people without kids do it everyday.

Nah, if you don't have kids your statements about anything to do with them really don't hold much value.

It doesn't matter if you've babysat your nephew or volunteered in a nursery or even worked full time at a day care. You still, at some point, get to pass that kid off and forget about it. You never get that as a parent. Even if you have someone watching them, they're still on your mind. It's a war of attrition, 24/7, every day. It is inevitable that you'll have a lapse of concentration or a "brain fart" at some point, and your kid will do something stupid. It's not negligent, it's called being a human.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

I said you have as much control over a 2yo as you want with want being the keyword.

I used to think something like that. Then I had a baby... which became a two year old. Most parents are simply not equipped and knowledgable enough to handle something like 24 hours a day. Most of the time, you're making it up. All the books, anecdotal stories you've heard, nieces/nephews, etc... mean very little.

It's pretty much like that famous stand-up bit. It's like taking care of a drunk friend at the end of the night while you're exhausted. You're just happy if he doesn't vomit all over the cab and take a dump that soaks through his pants onto the seat. Insert random meth-strength abilities. Communication abilities are nearly non-existent. Random gators at Disneyworld are likely the last thing you'll think about.

I hate to be that condescending parent, but pretty much most judgement by those without their own kids is met by this response by me:

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Nah, if you don't have kids your statements about anything to do with them really don't hold much value.

It doesn't matter if you've babysat your nephew or volunteered in a nursery or even worked full time at a day care. You still, at some point, get to pass that kid off and forget about it. You never get that as a parent. Even if you have someone watching them, they're still on your mind. It's a war of attrition, 24/7, every day. It is inevitable that you'll have a lapse of concentration or a "brain fart" at some point, and your kid will do something stupid. It's not negligent, it's called being a human.

Yes they are still on your mind, I did say people without kids would not understand the mental side of it. My point about controlling a kid was very specific to a 2yo child which was the case here (and I did say the parents were in no way negligent), I agree as they pass that age its harder and harder to do. I also said its up to the parent how much control they give up. I also agree no matter how much you watch a child things don't go as planned but I would hope for the most part at age 2 you are controlling most of their fate.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

What the hell is happening in Orlando? There was this incident, the shootings, and then Christina Grimmie's murder by a crazed fan.

Seriously what the hell is happening there?

Florida? Florida.

Let me introduce you to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/floridaman

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

Yes they are still on your mind, I did say people without kids would not understand the mental side of it. My point about controlling a kid was very specific to a 2yo child which was the case here (and I did say the parents were in no way negligent), I agree as they pass that age its harder and harder to do. I also said its up to the parent how much control they give up. I also agree no matter how much you watch a child things don't go as planned but I would hope for the most part at age 2 you are controlling most of their fate.

The point you are making is absolutely irrelavent here. That a parent could carry around their two year old in a kennel doesn't have a place in the argument. Because if that's the position you that parents can control every aspect of their kids lives then driving Should never happen. It has looked at through relative levels of risk.

I would argue that you don't control your two year olds fate to any degree relative to any competent parent. In a lot of ways kids take very little to keep alive. Disease or car accidents are what is going to kill your child. To imply that you somehow control your child's fate is incredibly arrogant

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Nah, if you don't have kids your statements about anything to do with them really don't hold much value.

I'm not a pilot but I know enough that if I see a plane crushed into the side of a mountain I know enough that, "Yo, that's messed up."

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by GGG

The point you are making is absolutely irrelavent here. That a parent could carry around their two year old in a kennel doesn't have a place in the argument. Because if that's the position you that parents can control every aspect of their kids lives then driving Should never happen. It has looked at through relative levels of risk.

I would argue that you don't control your two year olds fate to any degree relative to any competent parent. In a lot of ways kids take very little to keep alive. Disease or car accidents are what is going to kill your child. To imply that you somehow control your child's fate is incredibly arrogant

I'm trying to find the part where I said keep them in a kennel but I can't.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Nah, if you don't have kids your statements about anything to do with them really don't hold much value.

Well having a kid certain doesn't make people experts. Of course you can have a valuable opinion on things you haven't experienced. That's what your brain is for. I would imagine there is a constant dialogue going through parent's minds...on one hand you want to see you kid explore and experience and learn. On the other...safety. But I'm quite sure no one would think...hey gaitors...while hanging out at a Disney hotel.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

I'm trying to find the part where I said keep them in a kennel but I can't.

my understanding of your argument is that a parent controls the life outcome of a two year old.

My counter is that is unless you lock your kid up and don't do anything you don't have the level of control asserted by your post.

[Kybosh]

Yeah, you could put a 2 year old in a perfectly padded room and they'd still find some way to hurt themselves or cause damage. They're essentially unpredictable.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

I'm trying to find the part where I said keep them in a kennel but I can't.

Somebody else helped with that point:

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It's true. You can just put your 2 year old in a pet carrier to avoid anything bad ever happening. There you go, total control.

I am curious, what level of control would you have done in this case? The father was close enough to attempt to fight the alligator.

And I'm willing to bet more people have been killed in car crashes going from the Orlando airport to Disney Wold than have been killed by alligators at Disney World.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Locke

Florida? Florida.

Let me introduce you to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/floridaman

Wow this subreddit is pure gold!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

Wow this subreddit is pure gold!

Its something alright. Florida is a helluva drug.

[burnin_vernon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Somebody else helped with that point:


I am curious, what level of control would you have done in this case? The father was close enough to attempt to fight the alligator.

And I'm willing to bet more people have been killed in car crashes going from the Orlando airport to Disney Wold than have been killed by alligators at Disney World.

I would guess it would be like the control you see by parents who screech at their kids every 30 seconds that they are not in arm's reach. The same ones who want their kids wearing helmets while playing volleyball.

I know a few parents like that who try to control any situation by limiting all risk (and often times, fun) at all times. It's not a crate, but it's close.

[calgaryblood]

How hard would it be to build a fence in the water to keep the alligators from getting to the part where the tourists are? Would likely be a drop in the bucket expense wise and would be done fairly easily no?

[calf]

Originally Posted by burnin_vernon

I would guess it would be like the control you see by parents who screech at their kids every 30 seconds that they are not in arm's reach. The same ones who want their kids wearing helmets while playing volleyball.

I know a few parents like that who try to control any situation by limiting all risk (and often times, fun) at all times. It's not a crate, but it's close.

I can understand the screeching in certain contexts. You never know what kind of little ####s they have been and what the parent needs at that moment to stay sane.

The overprotectiveness really gmgs. My infant kid has a rare medical condition that will legitimately keep him from playing certain sports, or even be one of those kids that has to wear a helmet playing volleyball. I am sure we will, or have already, be judged for the protective gear he wears. I am not worred about it because once it is explained to people, they understand. What gmgs about what you described, is that despite this, one of the first things the doctors told us is to take every effort for our kid to be as normal as possible, so he doesnt turn out to be a weird bubble kid. These kids that are over protected with no real good reason need to be able to take risks.

Edit: i guess the thing is, like the overall theme of this thread, you never really know what a kid or parent are dealing with, which is why people should reserve judgment, even though it is hard to do.

[Mr.Coffee]

^

That's right and that's because life is a series of taking risks. A series of calculated risks, and being a parent is about protecting your young but teaching them about life's risks and how to make good decisions about those risks. And the opportunity costs of those risks. So that when they grow into adults they are able to carry on the same traits to their kids. You cannot control every aspect of your kids life, or you'd be chaining them up in the basement and you would be shipped off (rightfully) to prison.

That's why it is colossally stupid to suggest that you could (or should, but not many people are suggesting should) control every aspect of a your child's life. You people realize that a child is still an autonomous human being right? That it is not a remote controlled car? That inevitably in life there are variables? Variables with different risk profiles that can be controlled and not controlled.

[taco.vidal]

Some parents think all parents must be like they are. In reality there are all types of parents. Some parents are normal, some parents dont give a #####, while others are on the other end of the extreme in being over protective. Some parents dont really care about their kids. Look how many deadbeat dads there are. Usually people focus on the financial aspect of it and dads trying to avoid paying child support. But those same dads usually arent involved in their kids lives at all, often times they havent ever even seen their child since birth. Theres also terrible mothers who have the grandparents take care of the kid because being a mother doesnt fit their lifestyle. The point is that saying someones view is the way it is because they dont have kids isnt always an accurate statement. Sometimes people just have different feelings towards kids and parenthood and it will apply when they have their own kids.

Originally Posted by calf

I can understand the screeching in certain contexts. You never know what kind of little ####s they have been and what the parent needs at that moment to stay sane.

The overprotectiveness really gmgs. My infant kid has a rare medical condition that will legitimately keep him from playing certain sports, or even be one of those kids that has to wear a helmet playing volleyball. I am sure we will, or have already, be judged for the protective gear he wears. I am not worred about it because once it is explained to people, they understand. What gmgs about what you described, is that despite this, one of the first things the doctors told us is to take every effort for our kid to be as normal as possible, so he doesnt turn out to be a weird bubble kid. These kids that are over protected need to be able to take risks.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Some parents think all parents must be like they are. In reality there are all types of parents. Some parents are normal, some parents dont give a #####, while others are on the other end of the extreme in being over protective. Some parents dont really care about their kids. Look how many deadbeat dads there are. Usually people focus on the financial aspect of it and dads trying to avoid paying child support. But those same dads usually arent involved in their kids lives at all, often times they havent ever even seen their child since birth. Theres also terrible mothers who have the grandparents take care of the kid because being a mother doesnt fit their lifestyle. The point is that saying someones view is the way it is because they dont have kids isnt always an accurate statement. Sometimes people just have different feelings towards kids and parenthood and it will apply when they have their own kids.

Hey to be clear I'm not saying you can't have an opinion if you've never had a kid. I'm just saying its usually insensitive and virtually always ignorant because I have had the luxury of experience of living life and forming opinions sans kids and as well with kids, and so naturally I have a much greater and deeper appreciation for what raising a kid is like.

For example I could go talk to an aerospace engineer on my opinion of what they're next engine model should look like, but if they laughed at my opinion if understand there's a huge gap there in understanding.

[OMG!WTF!]

What is it exactly that kidless people can't understand about parenting? I think if anything people without kids have more objective and unbiased opinions. There is a great deal of pride involved in parenting and I think the "don't tell me your opinion if you don't have kids" argument is quite often a defense again criticism. No one wants to get tips on being a parent. And if personal experience was a requirement for opinions we'd have very little to give opinions on. Also, we've all been kids and experienced parenting in some form. That makes us all aerospace engineers. I may not have built the same plane as you but I know a bit about it.

It's like writing. Criticism from other writers is fantastic. But there is nothing like a solid drubbing from the general reading public to completely rearrange your aesthetic.