The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan - Page 159 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Strange Brew · 02-23-2018, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Man you guys must have a bad memory. Sutter was an excellent coach with a shelflife and an at best underwhelming GM.

Things went poorly at the end for Sutter but to say he was never considered a good GM is revisionist. He made several lauded moves in his first couple of years. The deadline deals in 2004 were key to getting them to the Finals.

GioforPM · 02-23-2018, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by memphusk

Do you use the same Uber driver and route 82 times a year?

Does GG do the same thing 82 games a year? Or are you exaggerating about him never changing lines/systems/etc?

I will say that, sometimes I've altered my longstanding routines. Sometimes it works. But sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes a positive change is only temporary and the original system worked better. Or sometimes I found that I needed to be patient with the original system.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that if GG appears to be too set, which is completely arguable at least on the powerplay, there's also a group of posters that want to change things too soon, before a line has a chance to work things out, or because of a short term lack of success. There's no middle ground it seems.

PsYcNeT · 02-23-2018, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Things went poorly at the end for Sutter but to say he was never considered a good GM is revisionist. He made several lauded moves in his first couple of years. The deadline deals in 2004 were key to getting them to the Finals.

Naw, it's not revisionist. Trading for Kiprusoff was his crowning achievement, no one denies that, however to say his trade, drafting and contract history is laudable outside that is ludicrous.

Also, the "deadline" area deals were Chris Simon and Marcus Nilson, hardly game changers. Niemenen you might have an argument for, but marginally.

Kjesse · 02-23-2018, 08:03 AM

He made some poor moves near the end of his GM tenure, but Kiprusoff for a 2nd was a stroke of genius (and sure, some luck). Adding Warrener, Reinprecht, Niemenan, Simon, were just good moves. In 03-04 Sutter was on his game.

The Fonz · 02-23-2018, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

In what universe did Sutter ever look like a good GM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Sutter was barely a GM for the 03-04 season. That was 95% Button or earliers team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Man you guys must have a bad memory. Sutter was an excellent coach with a shelflife and an at best underwhelming GM.

Sutter became the GM in April 2003. His acquisitions that 03/04 season in the lead up to the SCF were:

Kiprusoff
Warrener
Reinprecht
Nieminen
Simon
Nilson

They don't play in the SCF without Sutter's moves that season... they don't even make the playoffs.

Stick to SJWing the OT Forum.

PsYcNeT · 02-23-2018, 08:06 AM

Not to mention the coaching choices, lordy. Playfair, Keenan, B. Sutter? Woof.

kukkudo · 02-23-2018, 08:07 AM

Flames also would of continued being junk without Kipper coming in.

Strange Brew · 02-23-2018, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Naw, it's not revisionist. Trading for Kiprusoff was his crowning achievement, no one denies that, however to say his trade, drafting and contract history is laudable outside that is ludicrous.

Also, the "deadline" area deals were Chris Simon and Marcus Nilson, hardly game changers. Niemenen you might have an argument for, but marginally.

You claimed he was never considered a good GM. Don’t go changing the goalposts particularly after giving several examples of your own demonstrating his quality moves in his first 2 years.

PsYcNeT · 02-23-2018, 08:10 AM

A guy so good at being a GM that no one hired him to GM before or after.

His strength was by far at coaching, which is why his coaching career is much more praiseworthy. If anything, we did ourselves a disservice by pushing him into a GM role rather than keeping him as coach-only, Kiprusoff not withstanding.

DeluxeMoustache · 02-23-2018, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Naw, it's not revisionist. Trading for Kiprusoff was his crowning achievement, no one denies that, however to say his trade, drafting and contract history is laudable outside that is ludicrous.

Also, the "deadline" area deals were Chris Simon and Marcus Nilson, hardly game changers. Niemenen you might have an argument for, but marginally.

Niemenen-Nilson-Donovan was a pretty effective line, not sure how there is only a maybe argument for one guy.

Not only that, the team as a whole was very good under Playfair and Keenan, a top team in the West. A lot of moves were going for it during the window. Sure they disappointed in the playoffs, but for some were also brutally injury riddled.

Strange Brew · 02-23-2018, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

A guy so good at being a GM that no one hired him to GM before or after.

His strength was by far at coaching, which is why his coaching career is much more praiseworthy. If anything, we did ourselves a disservice by pushing him into a GM role rather than keeping him as coach-only, Kiprusoff not withstanding.

So in 2004, 2006 even up to Bouwmeester signing and first Jokinen trade, you don’t believe anyone in the universe considered Sutter a good GM?

The Fonz · 02-23-2018, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

A guy so good at being a GM that no one hired him to GM before or after.

You're comment was "in what universe did Sutter ever look like a good GM?". The answer is this universe, as he was widely regarded as the leagues greatest GM at the conclusion of the 2003/04 season.

You got caught looking like a dumbass, and rather than admit you were wrong, you're pretending you didn't say what is literally written posts above. Such a Trump disciple.

PsYcNeT · 02-23-2018, 08:16 AM

Drafting like an Oilers GM for most of his tenure, passing out hefty contracts to over the hill vets, losing high caliber players for nothing so we could keep Olli Jokinen. Yeah, revisionist.'

Not entirely sure where the cult of Sutter being more than an excellent coach elevated above his station came from, but you guys continue to surprise.

GioforPM · 02-23-2018, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

A guy so good at being a GM that no one hired him to GM before or after.

His strength was by far at coaching, which is why his coaching career is much more praiseworthy. If anything, we did ourselves a disservice by pushing him into a GM role rather than keeping him as coach-only, Kiprusoff not withstanding.

I think you missed "at first" in the post you responded to. Sutter wasn't pushed into a GM role, BTW.

I do not disagree that this team is nothing like the 04 team and those that followed, however. Those teams had two exceptional players, a really good defender, and a bunch of imported guys. The present team has a lot more home grown talent, and is deeper, especially down the middle and on defence, and the GM looks to me like he aims at the future far more than Sutter did.

Strange Brew · 02-23-2018, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Drafting like an Oilers GM for most of his tenure, passing out hefty contracts to over the hill vets, losing high caliber players for nothing so we could keep Olli Jokinen. Yeah, revisionist.'

Not entirely sure where the cult of Sutter being more than an excellent coach elevated above his station came from, but you guys continue to surprise.

Why don’t you read what people are writing?

Robbob · 02-23-2018, 08:20 AM

The weird thing about Sutter is he became a worse GM once he took it on full time.

Infinit47 · 02-23-2018, 08:23 AM

This has gone off the rails. What matters is that the mentor to our wundercoach just lead team Canada to a semi-finals loss against Germany at the Olympics.

Buff · 02-23-2018, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbob

The weird thing about Sutter is he became a worse GM once he took it on full time.

He wasn't patient enough. He made bad moves in attempts to win now. Then he had to fix some personnel issues and he made bigger mistakes in doing so. The game was also changing but he refused to budge on how high he valued the tireless grinders.

GioforPM · 02-23-2018, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buff

He wasn't patient enough. He made bad moves in attempts to win now. Then he had to fix some personnel issues and he made bigger mistakes in doing so. The game was also changing but he refused to budge on how high he valued the tireless grinders.

Now that is a lesson for Treliving. Especially regarding trading Bennett or Ferlands some want.

Classic_Sniper · 02-23-2018, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

You're right, there have been games where the Flames lost because of few mistakes. However, there were games where the Flames were completely outplayed yet won/forced OT because of Mike Smith and Rittich. Also, other teams also make mistakes. It's not just the Flames.

Brad Treliving sent a 1st round pick and 2 second's for Hamonic. Why? Because he believed that the team was ready to compete. Not just playoffs, divison, maybe even for the Cup. Hell, even Gultuzan said this is a 100 point team.

Yet here we are, battling for playoffs and outside looking in. I cannot really understand how can anyone look at this season as a whole and not be disappointed.

It's an 82 game season, naturally goaltenders will steal games for your team. A lot of opposition goaltenders and even their backups have stolen games for their team against us as well. It's definitely not just the Flames, that was my main point. We haven't been as bad as everyone thinks, the coaching isn't as bad as everyone thinks and we're facing the same type of problems every team faces in a long season.

To your second point, we gave up a lot for Hamonic. But he hasn't been nearly as impactful as I personally thought he was going to be. He doesn't have a great offensive skillset and it shows with his 1 goal this season. Been solid in the defensive end, but the addition of him doesn't make us a contender. He's just a slight upgrade over losing Derek Engelland.

Treliving also stated in the summer that he thought scoring goals was going to be this team's weakest link and it has come true. We rely on 2 lines to win us virtually every game. Other teams have the type of depth to have 3 or 4 lines consistently contributing in a meaningful way. We don't have that. We have a rookie center who's hit the rookie wall hard and a 4th line that's under performed compared to last season. Not enough internal help.

I'll be disappointed if we miss the playoffs. But I didn't think we'd be a contender anyway. I thought we'd be a bubble playoff team with a chance to win a round and that's where I think we are. We've had a tough schedule up to date and now this is the time where the team needs to make up ground and win. With no passengers and maybe even a small trade deadline addition, I think we can get hot and get in. Mike Smith has the ability to steal a round as well, so I definitely haven't given up on the season.