It's not just about full grown men, who don't wear any identifiable religious symbols, wandering around North America. There are far more vulnerable people around the world.
While not incorrect, the vast majority in this thread wringing their hands are Full Grown Men Who Don't Wear Any Identifiable Religious Symbols, other than maybe a Chai necklace or something.
Jews, if nothing else, have stealthily integrated ourselves into Western Cultures and only stand out if we choose to or are one of the various flavors of Orthodox.
To think that Ashkenazi Jews with surnames like Stern, Abrams, Becker, Dvorkin, etc. are going to swipe their credit card at a restaurant and the busboy is going to follow them outside and murder them for Being Jewy In Public is basically insane.
You can be concerned about increasing anti-Semitic sentiments while not over-inflating the actual danger posed to non-Israeli Jews.
As Blankall pointed out this isn't true at all. All the area around Koningsberg was completely depopulated of Germans and replaced with Russians. The entire city was given to Russia and we have Kaliningrad today. There's the entire Eastern portion of Germany SE of Koningsberg that was given to Poland.
Not just there. Something like 12 million ethnic Germans were forced to relocate to Germany after WW2. It wasn't fair, but it brought peace and stability. People have to get rid of the notion that fair and peace mean the same thing. In fact, it is often one or the other.
Arabs in Palestine have been offered a two-state solution 5 times if you go back to the British Mandate times, and each time it was turned down and war was chosen. The problem from their perspective isn't that they don't have a state, it's that Jews do have one. This is why even to this day, something like 15/22 Arab League nations do not recognize Israel's right to even exist, plus several other non-Arab League Muslim nations. They don't want a two-state solution.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 11-01-2023 at 11:35 AM.
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I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this subject. Isn't Syria an obvious solution? If the UN carves out a non-combat slice south of Damascus, it's not that far from Isreal, and the Palestinians might actually stabilize the area.
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This is entirely what a two state peace solution was meant to address. A stabilization of national borders between both Palestine and Israel. It would have recognized both Israel and Palestinian thousand year connections to the area and established shared governance of Jerusalem proper. Palestine under would have been defined as all of Gaza, 95-97% of the West Bank with the remaining 3% under paid lease by any remaining settlers and the evicting of the remaining 500K illegal Jewish settlers. There would have been no more gradual encroachment and a lot of Jews would have had the pain of being removed from what they considered their land as well. Hamas torpedoed this effort and started a civil war to stop it. It was the best solution possible for the mess left by the British mandate and would have done a lot to stabilize the regions.
While Israel has supported a two-state solution, they have always maintained that Palestine needs to be de-militarized/weaponized.
Obviously, we can see why they would want that; however, given the encroachments into Palestinian land, I can see why Palestine would balk at that caveat as well.
Perhaps a DMZ would alleviate some concerns. Or maybe an international force in Palestine (paid for by Israel)?
Not just there. Something like 12 million ethnic Germans were forced to relocate to Germany after WW2. It wasn't fair, but it brought peace and stability. People have to get rid of the notion that fair and peace mean the same thing. In fact, it is often one or the other.
Arabs in Palestine have been offered a two-state solution 5 times if you go back to the British Mandate times, and each time it was turned down and war was chosen. The problem isn't that they don't have a state, it's that Jews do have one. This is why even to this day, something like 15/22 Arab League nations do not recognize Israel's right to even exist, plus several other non-Arab League Muslim nations. They don't want a two-state solution.
Historically the thought was Nazi Germany kept on using the whole need to "protect ethnic German minorities that existed in other countries" as a pretext for invasion, allies forcefully took that excuse away. Incidentally, this is what Russians are using as an excuse in Ukraine, and also what triggered the Lebanese civil war from the huge influx of Palestinians.
Yes, for sure. As long as there are enough Arab countries that don't want Israel to exist, there will probably be a Hamas-like proxy sabotaging peace processes. Saudi Arabia is on board with recognizing Israel and probably the rest of the Arab league would be open to it eventually, but no way Iran will unless somehow all the clerics and the Ayatollah somehow bite the dust. So Gazans suffering will continue unless an international force can somehow keep out all the foreign influence into Gazan politics post Hamas collapse.
Last edited by FlameOn; 11-01-2023 at 10:03 PM.
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This is all you need to know about how serious is Israel is about having peace and giving the Palestinians their own state. Isarel literally says Hamas is an asset and some people still claim that if Hamas is eliminated we can have peace lol.
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state
This is all you need to know about how serious is Israel is about having peace and giving the Palestinians their own state. Isarel literally says Hamas is an asset and some people still claim that if Hamas is eliminated we can have peace lol.
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state
Do you begin every post with “This is all you need to know about…”?
While not incorrect, the vast majority in this thread wringing their hands are Full Grown Men Who Don't Wear Any Identifiable Religious Symbols, other than maybe a Chai necklace or something.
Jews, if nothing else, have stealthily integrated ourselves into Western Cultures and only stand out if we choose to or are one of the various flavors of Orthodox.
To think that Ashkenazi Jews with surnames like Stern, Abrams, Becker, Dvorkin, etc. are going to swipe their credit card at a restaurant and the busboy is going to follow them outside and murder them for Being Jewy In Public is basically insane.
You can be concerned about increasing anti-Semitic sentiments while not over-inflating the actual danger posed to non-Israeli Jews.
Oh well that makes it all better. I feel much more comfortable now.
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While not incorrect, the vast majority in this thread wringing their hands are Full Grown Men Who Don't Wear Any Identifiable Religious Symbols, other than maybe a Chai necklace or something.
Jews, if nothing else, have stealthily integrated ourselves into Western Cultures and only stand out if we choose to or are one of the various flavors of Orthodox.
To think that Ashkenazi Jews with surnames like Stern, Abrams, Becker, Dvorkin, etc. are going to swipe their credit card at a restaurant and the busboy is going to follow them outside and murder them for Being Jewy In Public is basically insane.
You can be concerned about increasing anti-Semitic sentiments while not over-inflating the actual danger posed to non-Israeli Jews.
Hey now. Non-Jews must know more about the Jewish experience than your lived experience as a Jew!
While Israel has supported a two-state solution, they have always maintained that Palestine needs to be de-militarized/weaponized.
Obviously, we can see why they would want that; however, given the encroachments into Palestinian land, I can see why Palestine would balk at that caveat as well.
Perhaps a DMZ would alleviate some concerns. Or maybe an international force in Palestine (paid for by Israel)?
Interesting, but who's going to run that international force? The UN? The Israeli's will balk at that as they feel that the UN has assaulted them, the UNWRA funds Hamas and works with them. NATO? Well the Palestinians won't like that, That's Christians at the gate for them. How about the Muslim States? Well Israel will certainly not allow that, and the Muslim States won't do it because they don't like Palestine as much as the Israeilis.
And what are the rules of force. Do they pulverize Gaza for example when Hamas launches a rocket attack? Do they pulverize Israel for attacking Gaza after some member of Hamas or whatever slips through and detonates a bomb on a bus?
Does this force setup road blocks and inspection and port inspection ports to prevent weapons from flowing into Gaza, because now you need a naval element and probably thousands of people to do it right.
Frankly a lightly armed traditional "Peace Keeping" force with the cute Blue Berets is just a hostage or human shield situation waiting to happen,it has no teeth, and honestly the UN sucks at it.
Are we talking Peace Enforcement? A heavily armed Mechanized Infantry brigade with backing artillery, and air assets and a mandate to enforce peace no matter what?
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There won't be a two state solution if Israel doesn't have an iron clad guarantee it gets an absolute end to violence afterwards, any solution that relies on peacekeepers is a non starter from Israel's point of view, the country is about an hours drive from, to use the phrase, the River to the sea, that is way way to small a land base to give up security on the off chance things might calm down in 30 or 40 years time.
And the reality is there will be no guarantee, the Palestine political class, be it PLO or Hamas relies on the conflict for their power, if there is one lesson you can learn from N Ireland its that the IRA only agreed to take part in the peace process when the Catholic population utterly rejected them and it was clear they had lost the support of their own people, they had no choice but to lay their arms down because the population was sick of war and their had been a particularly heinous killing of two kids due to badly planned bombings in England, it spawned the mothers marches and the song Zombie, it utterly cut the support out from under the IRA from a population that was fed up with living in a war anyway, if they could have carried on making a very good living from violence the IRA and UDA would have, what we all have to remember is the best paid job in Derry and Gaza was and is being the commander of freedom fighters
Last edited by afc wimbledon; 11-01-2023 at 03:56 PM.
when a Palestinian singer has a huge hit with a song about how Jewish kids are no different than Arab kids and the violence is utterly useless and pointless then maybe there will be peace, but until then this will go on indefinitely
And the reality is there will be no guarantee, the Palestine political class, be it PLO or Hamas relies on the conflict for their power, if there is one lesson you can learn from N Ireland its that the IRA only agreed to take part in the peace process when the Catholic population utterly rejected them and it was clear they had lost the support of their own people, they had no choice but to lay their arms down because the population was sick of war and their had been a particularly heinous killing of two kids due to badly planned bombings in England
I don't think we'll see a mass rejection of Hamas by Gazans in my life time no matter how many civilians are killed on the Israeli side. I mean the are still literally go pro videos of Gazan civilians celebrating and beating both captured hostages and dead civilian bodies alike. There's been too many decades where death of enemies and death of self is glorified by Hamas propaganda.
Yeah, I think it'll take a massive shift in Middle-East dynamics for there to be any hope in Palestine. Iran, Saudi, Syria and other bad actors will continue to stir the #### for their own cynical purposes and Palestine and Israel will suffer as a result.
There won't be a two state solution if Israel doesn't have an iron clad guarantee it gets an absolute end to violence afterwards, any solution that relies on peacekeepers is a non starter from Israel's point of view, the country is about an hours drive from, to use the phrase, the River to the sea, that is way way to small a land base to give up security on the off chance things might calm down in 30 or 40 years time.
And the reality is there will be no guarantee, the Palestine political class, be it PLO or Hamas relies on the conflict for their power, if there is one lesson you can learn from N Ireland its that the IRA only agreed to take part in the peace process when the Catholic population utterly rejected them and it was clear they had lost the support of their own people, they had no choice but to lay their arms down because the population was sick of war and their had been a particularly heinous killing of two kids due to badly planned bombings in England, it spawned the mothers marches and the song Zombie, it utterly cut the support out from under the IRA from a population that was fed up with living in a war anyway, if they could have carried on making a very good living from violence the IRA and UDA would have, what we all have to remember is the best paid job in Derry and Gaza was and is being the commander of freedom fighters
I think a big difference between the IRA-Britain and Palestinian-Israel conflicts is the religious aspect, and I think you mentioned it before too. While Catholic and Protestant was the defining characteristic to differentiate the sides, the conflict itself wasn't mainly a religious one. It came down to more rational factors.
Hamas has a stated goal of killing Jews for which they think has a divine order. Their charter says that when Jews hide, that god will give away their hiding places through talking trees and talking rocks. They (Islamic fundamentalists, which Hamas are) declare that they love death more than the other side loves life. As bad as things may have been between the IRA and Britain, I don't think it ever took on that element of complete insanity.
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when a Palestinian singer has a huge hit with a song about how Jewish kids are no different than Arab kids and the violence is utterly useless and pointless then maybe there will be peace, but until then this will go on indefinitely
LOL. No.
That would be like someone from Jordan writing a hit.
