[News] With the 21st overall pick Flames select C Mark Jankowski

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Who said Backlund was average defensively? Quit putting words in my mouth. He's great defensively as I've previously said numerous times.

Your opinion isn't right just because you speak in absolutes as well. You are the king of hyperbole.

Hyperbole is saying the Flames are very weak down the middle.

[calgaryblood]

Anaheim
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Toronto
Columbus
Pittsburgh
Capitals
Boston
Florida
Chicago
Rangers
Islanders
Minnesota
LA
St. Louis
Lightning
Predators
Sharks

All teams with better depth at Center and I even left the Stars off the list because I'm not a fan of the defensive game of Seguin and Benn.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Who said Backlund was average defensively? Quit putting words in my mouth. He's great defensively as I've previously said numerous times.

Your opinion isn't right just because you speak in absolutes as well. You are the king of hyperbole.

Sorry. I misread what you wrote about Backlund. In any event, I don't think it alters the fact that your claim about the Flames being "very weak" at centre is a fairly obvious exaggeration. How am I speaking in absolutes when I have maintained that the Flames centre depth is "presently above average with good potential to be excellent in a couple of years"?

That seems like a pretty reasonable statement.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

How am I ignoring Monahan is a good player? He is a great scorer, nobody is ever going to deny that. But he's not above average defensively.

If we are talking league wide Flames are average at the Center position at the very best. how can you say they're above average? Monahan and Backlund are all we have and one of them is average defensively which is really important for a Center. Most teams have at least two guys who are good defensively at the Center position. Flames need another good defensive Center on the third line. Hopefully it's Jankowski. But until they get one they are average at best and IMO a weak spot on the team.

I don't think many teams can boast the top 3 centers the Flames have at such a young age. Backlund is the elder at 28 then you have a 22 year old and a 20 year old. Considering 22 year old Monahan and 20 year old Bennett were quite arguably the Flames best 2 forwards in the playoffs there is reason for optimism.

Centre certainly isn't an area of weakness on the Flames. Considering the top line had a revolving door of guys on the 4th line playing RW I would suggest that is an area that needs to be looked at. Did you forget that we had a guy that was a healthy scratch for the last 20 games playing on our second pair for most of the season? That is an area that needs to be looked at.

Flames need a top line RW, some good 4-6 Dmen and a starting goalie before the address their centre depth. Centre is the one area where we have a mature prospect that looks ready to step in as well. Still a ways away on the wing or in net for that to happen. On the back end we should have at least one young guy ready to step into a bottom 3 spot but no one ready to be top 4

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

According to Matt Pfeffer's WAR model (Wins Above Replacement), Jankowski was the best player in the AHL this year (if I'm interpreting this correctly).

https://twitter.com/MattPfefferHky/s...72089512816642

I'm not sure how they calculate this WAR, but it seems heavily focused on goals, shooting percentage, and Time-on-ice

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I'm not sure how they calculate this WAR, but it seems heavily focused on goals, shooting percentage, and Time-on-ice

Interesting to see who else is on the leaderboard....Tyler Wotherspoon

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don't think many teams can boast the top 3 centers the Flames have at such a young age. Backlund is the elder at 28 then you have a 22 year old and a 20 year old. Considering 22 year old Monahan and 20 year old Bennett were quite arguably the Flames best 2 forwards in the playoffs there is reason for optimism.

Centre certainly isn't an area of weakness on the Flames. Considering the top line had a revolving door of guys on the 4th line playing RW I would suggest that is an area that needs to be looked at. Did you forget that we had a guy that was a healthy scratch for the last 20 games playing on our second pair for most of the season? That is an area that needs to be looked at.

Flames need a top line RW, some good 4-6 Dmen and a starting goalie before the address their centre depth. Centre is the one area where we have a mature prospect that looks ready to step in as well. Still a ways away on the wing or in net for that to happen. On the back end we should have at least one young guy ready to step into a bottom 3 spot but no one ready to be top 4

I think any non-homer fans would see the centre position as an area of weakness, but the homer fans are seeing the "potential" in the current group and believe Bennett, Jankowski, and Monahan as being soon-to-be top centres, hence our "depth" is good.

But the fact remains Monahan is 21st in points among centres, and Backlund is 35th, while Bennett is 104th. I think teams who have 2 centres in the top 30 or three in the top 60 have excellent centre depth. Teams who have two in the top 60 and three in the top 90 is the expected (ie, average). Anything below that is poor depth.

So the Flames have two centres in the top 60, but fail to have three centres in the top 90. Hence their "depth" is below the expected. Only their 1-2 centres meet the expected requirements of both being in the top 60.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Anaheim
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Toronto
Columbus
Pittsburgh
Capitals
Boston
Florida
Chicago
Rangers
Islanders
Minnesota
LA
St. Louis
Lightning
Predators
Sharks

All teams with better depth at Center and I even left the Stars off the list because I'm not a fan of the defensive game of Seguin and Benn.

Looking at that list I'm inclined to admit that Calgary is right now relatively weaker at center than I though. That said, even that list puts them somewhere around "slightly below average".

[jayswin]

Not that labels matter that much, but since Calgaryblood seemed to spark a heated discussion on what our centre depth actually is.

If you're taking into account proven NHL talent vs potential NHL talent I'd say our proven NHL talent is average and our prospect potential is very strong. I include Bennett in both proven NHL talent and prospect potential as different players, as he's a huge wildcard for us.

Proven NHL talent

Monahan - excellent first line centre, not elite
Backlund - excellent second line centre, not elite
Bennett - good third line centre, potential not with standing
Stajan/Lazar - Stajan is a strong fourth liner, Lazar likely able to take over this role current state

Prospect potential and NHL potential

1. Monahan - Elite first line centre
2. Bennett - First line centre playing second line/elite second line centre
3. Backlund - Second line centre playing third line/elite third line centre
4. Jankowski - Second/Third line centre playing fourth line
5. Lazar - 3rd/4th line centre playing the wing


So you can see how our potential is for a serious, awesome logjam at centre, and if this starts to show signs of panning out you most certainly entertain the idea of trading from that strength to shore up a weakness, but you can also see how we still have the potential to be average to even weak at centre as the years go by.

[jayswin]

I don't even see the need to necessarily trade a centre just because we have strength there, especially if the weakness is on the wings. If you really do hit all potential then move someone over and go from there.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Bennett
Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik
X - Jankowski - X
X - Lazar - X

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by guuar

No I'm not down for it at all. But, that is the kind of assets that Rutherford is going to squeeze out from under Treliving.

Treliving is stubborn and believes he is getting good value. When he sees the player he wants does things that ARE NOT intelligent.

The Hamilton trade is going to be won by Boston. We got a Top 4 D that fits with our core. Two of the players Boston drafted;

Right Winger Zachary Senyshyn + Defenceman Brandon Carlo.

Carlo is already a Top4 Dman in his rookie season in the league. Zachary Senyshyn has 87 goals in 125 games his last 2 seasons in Junior.

Unless Hamilton turns into a bonafide #1 D who is Top5 in Norris voting each year we are going to end up losing this trade.

Zachary Senyshyn is easily the kind of player. Put him with Monahan and Gaudreau and the kid could be hitting 50+ in the NHL.

It just goes to show that Treliving will make decisions he knows are risky. Everyone is so quick to say we should be all over re-signing him.

What has he done that Feaster couldn't have done?

Both Feaster and Treliving have made down right idiotic UFA signings in Wideman and Brouwer. Both signings made out of utter desperation when there was nobody else worth signing left available.

Both made idiotic trades and signings in desperation to magically fix our goaltending situation. Feaster gave up a 2nd round pick for a KHL goalie named Ramo. At least Ramo had some unknowns with a potential for being a #1.

Treliving was such an intelligent GM he handed out a 2 year contract to Jonas Hiller. Easily the worst signing in the history of the franchise. Treliving had to top Feaster though so he traded a 2nd round pick for a goalie known to fail under pressure in Brian Elliot.

What has Treliving done, really tell me? He's don't nothing more or less than any reasonable replacement would have done. If anything we are behind where we should be as a result of the dumb moves he's made.

He is stubborn and will make stupid decisions as a result. Like his big daddy, Jimbo, he doesn't like admitting he's wrong or that he's failed.

What is this nonsense? You must really like to hear yourself talk. I like how you make up total fabrications and convince yourself they are reality

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

Looking at that list I'm inclined to admit that Calgary is right now relatively weaker at center than I though. That said, even that list puts them somewhere around "slightly below average".

What makes Calgary weak in comparison to those other teams is the relative dearth of offense coming from the center group.

Kesler scored as many points as Monahan this year while being a selke candidate who is hard nosed and a beast on the draw. Getzlaf of course blew those 58points out of the water.

Center depth as flames fans is remarkable compared to Jokinen and Brendan Morrison but tis nothing to write home about for the rest of the league.

This is where Bennett is supposed to fit in and fill that Gap, but I am not holding my breath on that one at this point.

[Par]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What is this nonsense? You must really like to hear yourself talk. I like how you make up total fabrications and convince yourself they are reality

That post is not as bad as you say.

[djsFlames]

Monahan is turning 22
Bennett is turning 21

While it seems like they've been around long enough that we can gauge them as players, there's still 3-4 years of growth there for both players before we fully know their ceilings. That doesn't mean this season. It means another 3 seasons down the road, we'll be able to start to be able to know what we do or don't have. That's what is continually lost on people. Of course Getzlaf and Kesler are better right now, but they have 8-9 years on our centers. They're seasoned pros and have had a lot more time to figure out the NHL game.

You can't even make those comparisons, really, cause you're talking about players in different stages of their careers.

People continue to forget that the Flames are still a work in progress. We're so accustomed to this instant gratification and what have you done for me lately, but what if we see the kind of progression we have in Backlund but in two guys with more skill at their disposal? Have to exercise patience, as easy as it is to forget that.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jayswin

...Backlund - excellent second line centre, not elite...

I tend to agree with everything in your post except for this. Backlund is definitely an "elite" second line centre, and if is somehow pushed down to the third line at some point in his career, will easily be the best bottom six centre in the entire League.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Par

That post is not as bad as you say.

I find the tone of his posts are pompous and condescending, and the content is out to lunch. What is it that you find redeeming about them?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I tend to agree with everything in your post except for this. Backlund is definitely an "elite" second line centre, and if is somehow pushed down to the third line at some point in his career, will easily be the best bottom six centre in the entire League.

Fair enough, and I threw that list together really quickly and certainly hmm'd and hawed at Backlund. I figured he needed a few more points to be pushed into elite second line centre status, but I admittedly didn't compare his points to other second line centres.

[McG]

Hockey talk in a Jankowski thread? What happened to the "who gave weed to their mom" thread.

[djsFlames]

Backlund was playing at an elite 2nd line level until the last 2-3 weeks + playoffs.

Even then, he was good, scored a couple important goals. But wasn't quite at the same level. Said he was having back issues right? Probably had something to do with it.

I hope Monahan continues to progress. Right now he's probably somewhere in the 15-25 ranking for top line centers in the league. Which probably places him as merely an average or good top center.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Fair enough, and I threw that list together really quickly and certainly hmm'd and hawed at Backlund. I figured he needed a few more points to be pushed into elite second line centre status, but I admittedly didn't compare his points to other second line centres.

I think a lot of people set excessive expectations on what constitutes second line production in the NHL. On average, most NHL second line players are scoring between 35–40 points—this past season there were 143 +40-point-players, which amounts to less than five per team. 17 teams had more than four +40-point players on their roster, and only nine at least six players.