I have no problem with infinity, it's a mathematical concept that has ZERO to do with god!
The only mystery of God is how his name has managed to last this long.
Sure pal.
Lets play question and answer shall we?
Question: Do you believe in the Holy Bible?
You digress young dude. The mystery is that infinity is as you say a mathematical concept which has no bearing upon reality. Infinity is used however to describe the Universe because we have no other measuring stick of that scale. We do not know it's limits so we use the termi infinite to describe it. Standard atheist belief is that the Universe came fom nothing and by nothing therefore the Universe was infinite and existed before time
Not so because it has now agreed that the Universe had a beginning at the big bang and as such time existed from that appointment. According to the "came from nothing" theory matter miraculously appeared and some mysterious incredibly powerful source of energy happened to cause this explosion. All this from nothing. I would love to see that one repeated in a laboratory.
God is quite often defined as being an infinite being because that is one attribute of God. Others are Omnipotence (massive source of energy), Omniscient (Intellect beyond our tiny brains) and Omnipresent (ability to be anywhere at any time and in all places at the same time i.e. outside our known understanding of astyro physics.
I've put in a couple of posts. Maybe I should put in a few clarifying what I think because I do think that is really missing from people on the pro-religion side.
I'm not even close to a snob, I think it's funny that I've been accused of that.
Come on in Peter12 the water is fine with us mere mortals. Listen dude with posts like that you are sounding elitist. If you believe in Jesus you should know that he loved ordinary folk and would rather mix with them than religous snobs. That included people like those who have posted here. He loved them even when they disagreed with him. God doesn't mind questions from seekers and neither should we. Every poster here has a right to what they believe and I respect their right to believe as they do even when it is diametrically opposed to my own.
You digress young dude. The mystery is that infinity is as you say a mathematical concept which has no bearing upon reality. Infinity is used however to describe the Universe because we have no other measuring stick of that scale. We do not know it's limits so we use the termi infinite to describe it. Standard atheist belief is that the Universe came fom nothing and by nothing therefore the Universe was infinite and existed before time
Not so because it has now agreed that the Universe had a beginning at the big bang and as such time existed from that appointment. According to the "came from nothing" theory matter miraculously appeared and some mysterious incredibly powerful source of energy happened to cause this explosion. All this from nothing. I would love to see that one repeated in a laboratory.
God is quite often defined as being an infinite being because that is one attribute of God. Others are Omnipotence (massive source of energy), Omniscient (Intellect beyond our tiny brains) and Omnipresent (ability to be anywhere at any time and in all places at the same time i.e. outside our known understanding of astyro physics.
Standard atheist belief is that the Universe came fom nothing and by nothing therefore the Universe was infinite and existed before time
1) The only thing common among atheists is a lack of belief in a god, so attributing a specific scientific claim to all of them is both silly and misleading.
2) That statement doesn't represent any consensus view among cosmologists, to claim that is also misleading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
According to the "came from nothing" theory matter miraculously appeared and some mysterious incredibly powerful source of energy happened to cause this explosion.
The big bang wasn't an explosion, to say so demonstrates a lack of understanding of cosmology, as does saying an incredibly powerful source of energy is required for the big bang.
You do know that the net energy of the universe is zero right?
Misrepresenting scientific claims to attack them is a straw man fallacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
I would love to see that one repeated in a laboratory.
So a laboratory is the only place where you can determine if something is correct or not?
Oh and mass and energy created out of nothing is done all the time in the laboratory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
God is quite often defined as being an infinite being because that is one attribute of God. Others are Omnipotence (massive source of energy), Omniscient (Intellect beyond our tiny brains) and Omnipresent (ability to be anywhere at any time and in all places at the same time i.e. outside our known understanding of astyro physics.
Bare assertion fallacy.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
I'm not surprised,as a matter of fact his writing style reminds me so much of another member who ducks ducks and tip-toes that my spidey sense says a second username.
Democracy is just one value... and it's a very flawed system, just the best one we've got. Ever heard of "tyranny of the majority"? When the majorities wants to oppress minorities, they should be able to? The US religious right are a group who would use "majority rules" to deny basic human rights to other groups (e.g. equality to homosexuals). They are exactly why the actions of the government shouldn't be dictated by religious doctrine.
I agree totally. However, what you are arguing against was not what I was attempting to say. I was trying to say more to the effect that I don't think that it is good for smaller but well-organized lobby groups to have powers beyond the average citizen to influence government.
As for the faults of democracy, I am well aware of it's problems. I don't even know if it is necessarily the "best" one we've got considering what it has evolved into (but don't ask me what is better. This isn't the thread for that!).
The religious right in the US is a classic example of a group of people who fail to understand that there needs to be a separation between church and state.
Regardless, you can't use Biblical examples to justify a form of government simply because the Bible is largely geared towards individuals, and many even groups of people than it is towards governments. Like I said before, governments can't be saved. Individuals can.
I think that we are on crossed paths here. I am not trying to use biblical examples to justify any form of government, and if you take god out of the conversation (as I have repeatedly done) how can anyone be "saved"? What I am trying to discuss why some peoples views on how "individuals act" is so different from the way that they think society as a whole should act.
And don't think that I am only talking about the religious right. Many groups talk about "rights and freedoms" but seem to balk at them if these rights are opposed to their views (eg. rights to safe abortions, rights of the unborn, rights to own and carry guns, same sex marriage rights, etc.).
As for atheism being a harmless belief what about Communism? It was/is atheistic to it's roots and even banned religion in some states in what was supposed to be a matrialistic paradise.
I always love when this example is brought forth. First of all, you have to distinguish between Communism and Socialism. This world has never seen the likes of true communism. It is a Utopian concept that can never become reality.
That being said, the reason for an anti-religious stance from the Communist Utopia is that it creates an inherent class structure. The word of God is not for the common man to understand on his own, it is to be taught by a select few. This may not be as much the case in current times, but recall the era in which the Communist Manifesto was written. Religion has classes, it creates classes, and that is the antithesis of the Communist concept.
Also recall that Stalin re-instituted the orthodox church during the "Great Patriotic War" against the Nazi's as a patriotic organization.
__________________
Who is in charge of this product and why haven't they been fired yet?
I think that we are on crossed paths here. I am not trying to use biblical examples to justify any form of government, and if you take god out of the conversation (as I have repeatedly done) how can anyone be "saved"? What I am trying to discuss why some peoples views on how "individuals act" is so different from the way that they think society as a whole should act.
How anyone can be 'saved' is a totally different discussion. I'm just going by the teachings of Jesus and how they apply to our world. While he certainly does seem to advocate socialism with certain things that he said, it does still apply to the individual and not towards any government.
Is helping your fellow man in need considering socialist? Communist?
Because we both know that such an act often happens in a capitalist society as well. In fact, it happens more often simply because people actually have money that they can give to others as opposed to the government giving it to others.
Which in itself is a big difference as well. In a communist government the state controls who gets money, help or whatever. In a capitalist society each individual person has control over that. From what I've read, Jesus or the Bible never said anything about the government doing that, but he did advocate that we as humans share with those in need.
Again, nothing to do with the government.
Quote:
And don't think that I am only talking about the religious right. Many groups talk about "rights and freedoms" but seem to balk at them if these rights are opposed to their views (eg. rights to safe abortions, rights of the unborn, rights to own and carry guns, same sex marriage rights, etc.).
I have no problem with infinity, it's a mathematical concept that has ZERO to do with god!
The only mystery of God is how his name has managed to last this long.
Sure pal.
Lets play question and answer shall we?
Question: Do you believe in the Holy Bible?
OK T@T since you have to know what I believe I am a Christian so of course I believe in God's word. Now you have asked me this question for the inevitable next question which was your point of the setup in the first place. Let's cut to the chase shall we? What is your real question that you have been waiting to ask? Spit it out man.
Atheism and Agnosticism could merely be the description to the struggle within. Most atheists were at one time church goers and where raised with religeous beliefs and upbringings.
What do you say about people that we've all known as friends and that have had obvious life changing experiences and are now Christians?
Or famous people like Brian Head who used to be in Korn or even CC Deville from Posion. I saw a series of interviews with him recently on YouTube and I must say I was surprised, I didn't know that about him.
Atheism and Agnosticism could merely be the description to the struggle within. Most atheists were at one time church goers and where raised with religeous beliefs and upbringings.
What do you say about people that we've all known as friends and that have had obvious life changing experiences and are now Christians?
Or famous people like Brian Head who used to be in Korn or even CC Deville from Posion. I saw a series of interviews with him recently on YouTube and I must say I was surprised, I didn't know that about him.
Good point DionPlett
I think one problem people have with "religion" today are the scandals that have emerged from institutions such as the Catholic church. People are dissilusioned by trusted people such as priests who have commited acts of paedophilia against young innocents. The reaction is understandable as this is abhorrent and unacceptable behaviour. It has caused many to become dissilusioned with their faith, in particular Catholics who have been taught that their church was/is the one true church and salvation comes through the sacraments and membership of that church.
Many though like the individuals you have named have found a peace and new found zeal for life through a personal relationship with God. A relationship that does not require church membership or observing institutional sacraments. It is free and without ties. The individual then is free to express their faith in the manner in which they feel comfortable rather than being a part of a club where they are expected to perform.
That is not to put down organised religion where many receive enormous satisfaction and meaning in their lives by participating in such.
It is just that we can't throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to our faith. We must keep our eyes on God and not be distracted by man. Man will always fail, God won't. Man's desire are carnal, God is our Abba and loves us beyong our comprehension. When one comes to God as these people have the most powerful thing they have is their testimony. They experience something which can't be put into words as they go on a journey and realise the reality of God in their lives. That is what changes them - not will power.
It then becomes a spirtitual journey not an intellectual one alone.
We debate here with words and our minds. When we come to God it is our spirit which communicates. That experience is unlike anything you have ever experienced in your life and is impossible to explain unless you have went through it personally. To feel God's presence is incredible and as such to those who have had the experience they will forever be changed.
To those who doubt no explanation will suffice.
To those who seek however it is promised that they shall find truth and truth will set them free. That freedom is absolutely wonderful.
Photon
Instead of sitting on the sidelines, shooting from the hip and critiquing posters postulations why don't you give your explanation of the origins of the Big Bang?
Photon
Instead of sitting on the sidelines, shooting from the hip and critiquing posters postulations why don't you give your explanation of the origins of the Big Bang?
I'm not Photon, but...it could very well be spontaneous and random - no reason behind it. Similar to a quantum vacuum fluctuation.
Or there could be a reason behind it. Nobody knows.
Last edited by Day Tripper; 05-17-2010 at 02:25 PM.
OK T@T since you have to know what I believe I am a Christian so of course I believe in God's word. Now you have asked me this question for the inevitable next question which was your point of the setup in the first place. Let's cut to the chase shall we? What is your real question that you have been waiting to ask? Spit it out man.
Typical tip-toe threw the tulips
You were the one who said "bring it on"
I say GAME ON!
I want to debate your bible and every fairy tale in it, I know if I truly believe in something I never have a problem debating those beliefs but anytime a Christian is asked to debate his/hers beliefs they run and hide...you sir are no different.
The true problem lies that even Christians don't believe in the fairy tales written in the bible, it's the weakness and fear that make then run and hide.
I want to debate your bible and every fairy tale in it, I know if I truly believe in something I never have a problem debating those beliefs but anytime a Christian is asked to debate his/hers beliefs they run and hide...you sir are no different.
The true problem lies that even Christians don't believe in the fairy tales written in the bible, it's the weakness and fear that make then run and hide.
I can't decide if your arrogance is worse than his.
I want to debate your bible and every fairy tale in it, I know if I truly believe in something I never have a problem debating those beliefs but anytime a Christian is asked to debate his/hers beliefs they run and hide...you sir are no different.
The true problem lies that even Christians don't believe in the fairy tales written in the bible, it's the weakness and fear that make then run and hide.
What do you think about the story when God asks Abraham to sacrifice his one and only son, Isaac?
What do you think about Kierkegaad's treatment of the story?
What do you think about the story when God asks Abraham to sacrifice his one and only son, Isaac?
What do you think about Kierkegaad's treatment of the story?
I think he killed a goat instead, what do I think of the story? Either it was just another bible story or Abraham was a sick man with the need to kill...the world is full of them...there's your "olah"
As for Kierkegaard, I don't remember much about him, I haven't been in school for over 30 years
