Buy?/Sell?/All-in?/Tank? What should the Flames do?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I can’t imagine Detroit wanting to add that salary
They want to maintain cap flexibility

I'd argue I'd does just that since it's one year of term. If the alternative is UFAs, we've seen firsthand how that plays out when it comes time to lock in your valuable young pieces. I acknowledge my trade was out of whack so we can forget it.


The thing with Monahan though - what examples are there of C's being dumped with sweeteners or bought out?

Wennberg - though he was young enough that it was a 1/3 BO. He did 1x2.25 and now he's back up to 3x4.5M

Was Ryan Spooner a C? I didn't realize he was on a 2x4M deal when EDM traded for him. Hahahahahaha. I think that was another 1/3 BO.

Tyler Ennis...

Antoine Vermette - strange one - ARI traded him to CHI for a 1st at the 2015 TDL. ARI signed him July 1 to a 2x3.75M. He had 17G 38P and then they bought him out (despite pretty fair 3C production?). He had 2 more serviceable years in ANA.

Stephan Weiss in 2015.


Tyler Johnson (3x5M remaining)+ 2nd for B Seabrook 3yrs of LTIR is the only trade I can think of...and it's a little mind-bottling to compute the cash/LTIR implications.


My point is that overpaid 2-3Cs don't get bought out or sweetened away nearly as often as any other position...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Groot

Hopefully the Flames can take advantage and offload also. If you agree that Coyotes will be taking on bad contracts, what other players will fill up 30ish million from other teams before the Flames can participate?

The thing is, Arizona wants to be well paid for it. They acquired a bushel of extra draft picks this year just for taking on the last year of players' contracts. They'll want an even higher price to take contracts with term remaining.

It's an option, but it should be a last resort.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'd argue I'd does just that since it's one year of term. If the alternative is UFAs, we've seen firsthand how that plays out when it comes time to lock in your valuable young pieces. I acknowledge my trade was out of whack so we can forget it.


The thing with Monahan though - what examples are there of C's being dumped with sweeteners or bought out?

Wennberg - though he was young enough that it was a 1/3 BO. He did 1x2.25 and now he's back up to 3x4.5M

Was Ryan Spooner a C? I didn't realize he was on a 2x4M deal when EDM traded for him. Hahahahahaha. I think that was another 1/3 BO.

Tyler Ennis...

Antoine Vermette - strange one - ARI traded him to CHI for a 1st at the 2015 TDL. ARI signed him July 1 to a 2x3.75M. He had 17G 38P and then they bought him out (despite pretty fair 3C production?). He had 2 more serviceable years in ANA.

Stephan Weiss in 2015.


Tyler Johnson (3x5M remaining)+ 2nd for B Seabrook 3yrs of LTIR is the only trade I can think of...and it's a little mind-bottling to compute the cash/LTIR implications.


My point is that overpaid 2-3Cs don't get bought out or sweetened away nearly as often as any other position...

Perhaps but Detroits rebuild isn’t at a point where they are looking to add a guy like Monahan

[Mindtravellee]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Perhaps but Detroits rebuild isn’t at a point where they are looking to add a guy like Monahan

Still need to spend the money on someone and also have experienced guys around the locker room to set the standard and culture

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Mindtravellee

Still need to spend the money on someone and also have experienced guys around the locker room to set the standard and culture

They already tried that by dealing a second for Leddy. Blew up in their collective face.

Rebuilding teams should get vets through UFA, not trades.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

They already tried that by dealing a second for Leddy. Blew up in their collective face.

Rebuilding teams should get vets through UFA, not trades.

Thats not entirely true, You can spend bad money too early on UFA's and then when you actually need them to be good they are severely undetperforming their contract and taking up space to sign RFA's. Can be either; it just needs to make sense for the direction the team is heading and where their window is.

[TheScorpion]

Oh I don't mean rebuilders should commit to huge UFA deals. I'm talking about one or two year cheap contracts for vets.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mindtravellee

Still need to spend the money on someone and also have experienced guys around the locker room to set the standard and culture

Pretty vague reasons for them wanting a guy like Monahan.
I could see a team taking a chance on him, but not a team like Detroit that is still building and has a patient GM at the wheel.

I continue to think this is why people are disappointed with the lack of moves or when trades are made. To be blunt, many proposals come down to fans expecting Calgary to acquire good players in exchange for worse players.

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Oh I don't mean rebuilders should commit to huge UFA deals. I'm talking about one or two year cheap contracts for vets.

the Leafs did this for a couple of years and then would flip the vets at the deadline for futures...believe they traded away and re-signed Polak in back to back years.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by robertsfanatic

the Leafs did this for a couple of years and then would flip the vets at the deadline for futures...believe they traded away and re-signed Polak in back to back years.

I think Toronto also did this with Daniel Winnik twice.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

They already tried that by dealing a second for Leddy. Blew up in their collective face.

Rebuilding teams should get vets through UFA, not trades.

Blew up? Let's wait see if they flip him at the TDL. And they've had at least a half season of a real partner for Hronek (and their other young RHD).

Leddy is only 30 and already played 820 games, with a ring and tons of playoff experience. A 1st is very possible at the TDL, or more likely a 2nd+3rd type deal (maybe conditions can promote to a 1st). Barring long-term injury, he's very likely to net a positive ROI.

DET has made 26 picks in the top 71 in the last 6 years. They could afford to make a bet on a 52OA turning into something even better since they still drafted 6, 15, 36, and 70 last year.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

DET has made 26 picks in the top 71 in the last 6 years. They could afford to make a bet on a 52OA turning into something even better since they still drafted 6, 15, 36, and 70 last year.

Aatu Raty is looking pretty good in the SM-Liga, so they may regret that.

Defense market was pretty ugly this last offseason though, if you look at what guys like Ceci, etc were able to sign for. So could see why they went the trade route.

Still think questions could be asked why you just didn't chase after like a Erik Gudbranson type.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Aatu Raty is looking pretty good in the SM-Liga, so they may regret that.

Defense market was pretty ugly this last offseason though, if you look at what guys like Ceci, etc were able to sign for. So could see why they went the trade route.

Still think questions could be asked why you just didn't chase after like a Erik Gudbranson type.

DET is pretty set at RHD. A Ryan Murray type might have worked, but he's struggled to stay on the ice yet again for COL. Edler/Goligoski signed 1 yr deals with NMCs; Suter/McCabe/Martinez/Nemeth/Forbort/Kulikov got term with some level of NTC and went to [presumably at the time] better teams.

It's easy to talk about filling a hole with UFAs, but the shoe doesn't always fit. McCabe might have been a great option, but he's a Wisconsin kid who ended up closer to home in CHI. DET already had Nemeth who returned them a 4th last TDL. Leaving Forbort as the only plausible option


DET lost Cholowski to SEA who waived him at the start of the season... was claimed by WAS (I presume near the bottom of waiver priority at the time?)...they just waived him today - wouldn't be at all suprised to see MTL or DET claim him in advance of trading away a LHD.


An interesting question is who should garner a bigger return: Leddy or Chiarot? Leddy would need a 3rd party to get his AAV to match, but otherwise he's a superior choice...

[King Theo]

All in. Our 2 biggest stars could walk after this year. If they do we have no chance at winning for at least 10 years. Trade picks, top prospects.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by King Theo

All in. Our 2 biggest stars could walk after this year. If they do we have no chance at winning for at least 10 years. Trade picks, top prospects.

not true

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by dino7c

not true

Not exactly true, but more or less true.

Do you want to spend next season wondering if Tkachuk on a one-year expiring contract is going to extend, and then the subsequent season wondering if Lindholm on an expiring contract is going to extend?

We really want that narrative to play out for three straight years?

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Not exactly true, but more or less true.

Do you want to spend next season wondering if Tkachuk on a one-year expiring contract is going to extend, and then the subsequent season wondering if Lindholm on an expiring contract is going to extend?

We really want that narrative to play out for three straight years?

If there's anyone who would extend way before the expiration of a contract, it's Lindholm.

I don't really know why I think this. Maybe it's because he and his cousin were so willing to sign long term deals in which they were quite underpaid. Their family doesn't exactly seem to operate like the Tkachuk family when it comes to contracts.

[powderjunkie]

Here are the potential UFA options at C this off-season:

Malkin/Bergeron/Giroux/Getzlaf - re-sign or only to top contenders
Pavelski/Stastny - similar to above (contention/lifestyle considerations probably outweigh $$/term at this point)

Hertl - turns 28 in Nov
Kadri - 32

Trocheck - 29
Strome - 29 (exact same birthday as Trocheck 11-Jul '93)

Copp - 28
Tierney - 28
Eakin - 31
Bozak - 36
Domi/Rodrigues/Jarnkrok/Johansson/Namestnikov/etc - versatile middle sixers who you wouldn't want to rely on at 2C


Two premium options, though it's gotta be a little scary to bet on Kadri at his age based on an anomalous season. Trocheck and Strome are fine, but pretty scary bets if you're an ascending team looking at 6x6+.

Then you're looking at 3Cs or wingers who might slide to C in a pinch.


Paying a cond. 2nd/3rd on a Monahan bet would be more palatable to me than paying the price on pretty much anyone not named Hertl. Tierney seems like an interesting buy-low candidate - not really sure hat's happened to him the last 2 years?


Look at Paul Stastny's last couple years in STL...$7M AAV averaging .23 g/gp and .62 p/gp and he still returned a 1st+ at final TDL.

Monahan is about .18 g/gp and .51 p/gp these last 2 years. Obviously you can't bank on a bad trade repeating, but Monahan's numbers wouldn't have to improve by much to be fairly appealing by the TDL.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Not exactly true, but more or less true.

Do you want to spend next season wondering if Tkachuk on a one-year expiring contract is going to extend, and then the subsequent season wondering if Lindholm on an expiring contract is going to extend?

We really want that narrative to play out for three straight years?

Flames still have from end of season until July 1st to trade any of Tkachuk, Mangiapane, or Kylington if they don't feel they can come to terms on a fair long term contract.

Even longer for Mangiapane and Kylington because it's not like they are signing their qualifying offer on July 1st. And that's assuming Tkachuk signs his Qualifying offer on July 1st - which he would never do because he might as well wait until right before training camp to do that if he wants, they have all offseason to negotiate still or work out a sign and trade to a team of Tkachuk's preference.

Gaudreau is the only piece that can actually walk after this season.

[mikephoen]

You should never base any decisions on one game.

But, if there ever was one game to base this decision on, that was it.

All. In.